Gene Roddenberry killed Spock & Tasha Yar under his watch & he also had Uhura get raped in "GamesMasters of Triskailion", so darkestness & death are just as much apart of Trek as the light is. Yes Trek is about hope but how do appreciate hope & light unless you're willing to explore Hell? If Trek as you say is about people, then death is what tests our mortality.Amen to that Sister
Listen if you want predictable Trek thats your deal but it would kill the wrighters to break from the norm into rougher waters.Star trek is not only about the hope of humanity, but humanity in a whole. With out the death what makes life worth living. As far as ending on a down note its treks "final frontier" and exploring emoition, space, and the holodeck is what trek is about.
No you are not right, you want something that isn't Trek to a lot of people. I don't like your interpretation. I want the illusion of Happily Ever After, and I am not alone in that. I don't want the current writers' interpretation of "rough waters". It isn't art and it's lazy writing. I don't want dead anyone period. You can have conflict without killing someone.
The thing is I know I'm not alone, just recently the "New York Times" ran an article that states, "In a recession, what people want is a happy ending." It goes so far to state that the only books that are making money or had a rise in readership last year are those with happy endings. You might not like it very much but it's true, your interpretation of what Trek should be is flat out of fashion now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/books/08roma.html?_r=4&ref=arts&pagewanted=all
The inclusion of major character death doesn't make unpredictability, that can be just as predictable as anything else if it's used for the wrong people. You see Trek isn't just about exploration or any of the other things mentioned, it's about people. It's about people that the audience cares about.
Brit
Endgame as it was first intended...
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Well said.
I think we're teetering dangerously on the 'what is Star Trek' argument, which is an ugly and irreconcilable thing IMO, because Trek is many things to many people - who each like it for their own reasons. Ultimately, I think all we can try to analyze is what the creators and writers intended without plopping into a 'Star Trek is ____ and not ____' discussion.
Well said, right back at you.
Well said.
I think we're teetering dangerously on the 'what is Star Trek' argument, which is an ugly and irreconcilable thing IMO, because Trek is many things to many people - who each like it for their own reasons. Ultimately, I think all we can try to analyze is what the creators and writers intended without plopping into a 'Star Trek is ____ and not ____' discussion.
It's about context, not graphic violence. Star Trek's always been about implied horror rather than splashing a load of fake blood around the set. One of my favourite TNG episodes, The Survivors, has a man wiping out an entire race in the blink of an eye because he lost his wife. It's chilling, and thought provoking, and morally ambiguous in a way that very little television actually manages to be.
In an attempt to be "gritty" and "realistic", television programmes have become more graphic, which in turn lessens their effectiveness. In the seventies, when G. F. Newman wrote Law and Order (the BBC films), the idea of the police as corrupt and violent was shocking for a television audience more used to seeing Dixon of Dock Green, an affable bobby who apprehended young scallywags, recovered lost bikes, and greeted the audience with a cheerful "Evening all". But the more you do it, the less impact it has.
Captain Ransom committed mass murder to try and get his crew home. That's dark, arguably the darkest thing to happen on Star Trek. He also tries to have Seven of Nine lobotomised to extract information. With the Founder ordering the genocide of the Cardassians, or Garak murdering Vreenak, you can buy that, because these aren't nice people. But an enlightened, 24th century human, just like Picard, Riker, Bashir, Janeway? That's hard hitting for Star Trek. But the show bottles it, and no one is really given a chance to reflect on the magnitude of it.
There were a lot of interesting ideas on that show, but the writing staff never made the most of them (though I do understand that studio interference made it much more difficult than for the syndicated DS9). That doesn't mean you need to have Chakotay hit someone with a rock, because that's not what Star Trek is about, but no one ever seemed to be faced with the consequences of their actions. Voyager didn't need to be dark to make it a good show, but the half-hearted attempts to make an intense story, with a dubious moral judgement tacked on the end (see Tuvix), just made it seem indecisive and shallow.
Agreed. Well said, Tomalak.
Why, thanks.
Well said, right back at you.
Well said.
I think we're teetering dangerously on the 'what is Star Trek' argument, which is an ugly and irreconcilable thing IMO, because Trek is many things to many people - who each like it for their own reasons. Ultimately, I think all we can try to analyze is what the creators and writers intended without plopping into a 'Star Trek is ____ and not ____' discussion.
Why, thanks.
Perhaps shallow was the wrong word. I suppose it all felt rather inconsequential, in that nothing seemed to make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
We don't know how many memories Tuvok and Neelix shared after the fact. You saw what a little Tuvok did for Suder after their meld, although Janeways personality was inquenchibly stolid... Neelix could have walkedout of this as a better officer and a better lover.
Tuvix might tie into Riddles subtly or coincidentally, but it should have tied in overtly... I would have creamed myself if when Neelix was trying to convonce amnesiac Tuvok to get the surgery to retreive his misplaced original personality, that he'd said at some point "Remember when we were Tuvix?"
Worst support/rehab group ever.
Kirk holding that rock above the Gorns head, getting ready to crush it afer their epic struggle was... And then the "I'm not a buttmonkey" speech, followed by the "lets be friends" speech and "oh dear this has all been a giant misunderstanding" speech was pretty cool, but you vould see how it could have just as easily gone the other way if Kirk was an ounce more brute more interested in vengeance than justice.
Remember how Plato used o go on about perfect forms? Everything we say is an imposible attempt to construct the perfect argument/conversation/rant. There is a way of saying things to be unclenchng right and if I keep reapeating myself with some variation in this forum then I'll figure it out one day and be unclenchingly right.
Tuvix might tie into Riddles subtly or coincidentally, but it should have tied in overtly... I would have creamed myself if when Neelix was trying to convonce amnesiac Tuvok to get the surgery to retreive his misplaced original personality, that he'd said at some point "Remember when we were Tuvix?"
Worst support/rehab group ever.
Kirk holding that rock above the Gorns head, getting ready to crush it afer their epic struggle was... And then the "I'm not a buttmonkey" speech, followed by the "lets be friends" speech and "oh dear this has all been a giant misunderstanding" speech was pretty cool, but you vould see how it could have just as easily gone the other way if Kirk was an ounce more brute more interested in vengeance than justice.
Remember how Plato used o go on about perfect forms? Everything we say is an imposible attempt to construct the perfect argument/conversation/rant. There is a way of saying things to be unclenchng right and if I keep reapeating myself with some variation in this forum then I'll figure it out one day and be unclenchingly right.
1) So I guess Rachel Garett wasn't much of a woman then.
2) Galactica looked that way because [gasp] in reallife if you have a spaceship and it goes into battle several times and there is NO facility to relean and pair it than shock of shocks it DOESN'T look all clean and shiny
Which probably wouldn't be much if they suddenly became the only military base on the planet with only the resources of that base to survive with.
Don'tforget that in the Empath McCoy was the subject of a nasty medical exam that involved sharp knives going in him. And I would exactlycall the endings of Requiem for Methuselah and City on The Edge of Forever happy endings.
I got very excited when reading a damage Control Comic in the early 90s because the Incredible Hulk stopped a rampage through new York against Super villains to talk about Star Trek to say "I liked the one where he swore at the end."
Swore?
Swore?
Some grand swear skipped past the sensor like a Jackson nipple?
Wow.
I was less impressed when I discovered what the so called swear was in the last seconds of City on the Edge of Forever, but it was still nice to push boundaries I can no longer identify back when it somehow mattered.
And further more, without City of the Edge of forever, then we would never have the classic south park Episoe Sitting on the Edge of Forever.
Swore?
Swore?
Some grand swear skipped past the sensor like a Jackson nipple?
Wow.
I was less impressed when I discovered what the so called swear was in the last seconds of City on the Edge of Forever, but it was still nice to push boundaries I can no longer identify back when it somehow mattered.
And further more, without City of the Edge of forever, then we would never have the classic south park Episoe Sitting on the Edge of Forever.
I don't mean to pick on Brit here, but she's been the most forceful spokesperson for happy endings, and I can only quote so many people in any one post, so forgive me if I focus on her quotes:
Brit, I don't want to offend you, but if you want a fairy tale, why not read/watch a fairy tale? Why read/watch scifi at all?
I'm in favor of happy endings, and I didn't want Janeway to be killed off, but...
What I want is a positive future that might actually come true. That's a lot harder to write, but it is, in the end, more positive and more life affirming than the relentlessly upbeat because it's based on reality. And a positive future that might actually come true requires...well, people to be people. Which means some of them are going to experience grief and loss as well as triumph and happiness. And a few of them - not many, not if it's a happy ending - are going to die.
If it's not based at least somewhat on reality, what good is a happy ending? You may as well stick to Shrek. I love Shrek, but there is no chance it's going to come true.
You are almost making it difficult for me to say that I like happy endings because you have gone so much farther down the Happy Trail than I ever can.
Brit, I don't want to offend you, but if you want a fairy tale, why not read/watch a fairy tale? Why read/watch scifi at all?
I'm in favor of happy endings, and I didn't want Janeway to be killed off, but...
What I want is a positive future that might actually come true. That's a lot harder to write, but it is, in the end, more positive and more life affirming than the relentlessly upbeat because it's based on reality. And a positive future that might actually come true requires...well, people to be people. Which means some of them are going to experience grief and loss as well as triumph and happiness. And a few of them - not many, not if it's a happy ending - are going to die.
If it's not based at least somewhat on reality, what good is a happy ending? You may as well stick to Shrek. I love Shrek, but there is no chance it's going to come true.
You are almost making it difficult for me to say that I like happy endings because you have gone so much farther down the Happy Trail than I ever can.
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Haha trouble is, and awful lot of what happens on Trek in the ordinary weekly episodes is so unbelievable, they have countless last minute miraculous escapes
The Borg episodes spring to mind first. No wonder Admiral Janeway thought she was safe to enter the borg cube in Before Dishonour and ignored Lady Q and was so shocked when she found out she'd died despite being the one to help it blow up ..... before now some minor miracle had always pulled her out
She never should've survived in the Delta Quadrant.
Seven surviving said Borg Cube destruction in BD would qualify as such a miracle - how convenient that she was encased in some protective whatsit..... conveniently put there by TPTB because she wasn't the character they wanted to blow up this year.
I know TPTB aren't planning to resurrect Janeway so am not starting a debate over it here when I point out gently that Q, who has been shown to be all powerful, resurrecting her would be far less unbelievable than a lot of the other escapes she and all the others have had.
IMHO it would be far more believable than endgame, where Chakotay and Seven and to some extent Tuvok were resurrected by a dicey time travel plan of a half crazy elderly admiral.
But to be honest the minor miracles and the strange technoballble solutions are one of the things I like most about trek, its reassuring, which is why the odd time they do kill someone off its so devastating!
The Borg episodes spring to mind first. No wonder Admiral Janeway thought she was safe to enter the borg cube in Before Dishonour and ignored Lady Q and was so shocked when she found out she'd died despite being the one to help it blow up ..... before now some minor miracle had always pulled her out
She never should've survived in the Delta Quadrant.Seven surviving said Borg Cube destruction in BD would qualify as such a miracle - how convenient that she was encased in some protective whatsit..... conveniently put there by TPTB because she wasn't the character they wanted to blow up this year.
I know TPTB aren't planning to resurrect Janeway so am not starting a debate over it here when I point out gently that Q, who has been shown to be all powerful, resurrecting her would be far less unbelievable than a lot of the other escapes she and all the others have had.
IMHO it would be far more believable than endgame, where Chakotay and Seven and to some extent Tuvok were resurrected by a dicey time travel plan of a half crazy elderly admiral.
But to be honest the minor miracles and the strange technoballble solutions are one of the things I like most about trek, its reassuring, which is why the odd time they do kill someone off its so devastating!
Haha trouble is, and awful lot of what happens on Trek in the ordinary weekly episodes is so unbelievable, they have countless last minute miraculous escapes
The Borg episodes spring to mind first. No wonder Admiral Janeway thought she was safe to enter the borg cube in Before Dishonour and ignored Lady Q and was so shocked when she found out she'd died despite being the one to help it blow up ..... before now some minor miracle had always pulled her out
Seven surviving said Borg Cube destruction in BD would qualify as such a miracle - how convenient that she was encased in some protective whatsit..... conveniently put there by TPTB because she wasn't the character they wanted to blow up this year.
I know TPTB aren't planning to resurrect Janeway so am not starting a debate over it here when I point out gently that Q, who has been shown to be all powerful, resurrecting her would be far less unbelievable than a lot of the other escapes she and all the others have had.
IMHO it would be far more believable than endgame, where Chakotay and Seven and to some extent Tuvok were resurrected by a dicey time travel plan of a half crazy elderly admiral.
But to be honest the minor miracles and the strange technoballble solutions are one of the things I like most about trek, its reassuring, which is why the odd time they do kill someone off its so devastating!
I'm pretty sure technobable is more a thing for the TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT era because I don recall it in TOS.
This is pretty much my exact view. And it's worded far better than what I've tried to convey in other threads. I don't have a hard time expressing myself, but sometimes I have a hard time expressng myself well. lol. So thank you JustKate. Thank You.
Sorry to bring that back from a few posts back - but I was moved.
^ Aw. Why, thanks, Neo.
I've been trying to think of some good models for "happy but still having some connection to reality" endings. Two that come to mind are The Lord of the Rings and even (believe it or not) Schindler's List. Or, if even Lord of the Rings is too sad for you, how about Charlotte's Web? Bad things happen - in the first two examples, terrible, heart-wrenching, soul-shattering things. Good people (or good spiders, in the case of Charlotte's Web
) die, the world changes and in some ways not for the better.
But in all three...good triumphs in the end. That's a happy ending I can believe in. That's a happy ending that uplifts the spirit.
I've been trying to think of some good models for "happy but still having some connection to reality" endings. Two that come to mind are The Lord of the Rings and even (believe it or not) Schindler's List. Or, if even Lord of the Rings is too sad for you, how about Charlotte's Web? Bad things happen - in the first two examples, terrible, heart-wrenching, soul-shattering things. Good people (or good spiders, in the case of Charlotte's Web
) die, the world changes and in some ways not for the better. But in all three...good triumphs in the end. That's a happy ending I can believe in. That's a happy ending that uplifts the spirit.
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Interesting analogy.
