Endgame as it was first intended...

[Frazzled]

No you are not right, you want something that isn't Trek to a lot of people. I don't like your interpretation. I want the illusion of Happily Ever After, and I am not alone in that. I don't want the current writers' interpretation of "rough waters". It isn't art and it's lazy writing. I don't want dead anyone period. You can have conflict without killing someone.

The thing is I know I'm not alone, just recently the "New York Times" ran an article that states, "In a recession, what people want is a happy ending."

Yup, I got back into trek partly because real life was pretty pants a while back, and you're always guaranteed a happy ending in Roddenberry's universe, right? I'm not old enough to have been there for the hoo hah when they killed Spock then changed their minds and brought him back, I didn't realise that hadn't been the plan all along until I started reading here. By the time I got into Trek the first time around we were safely into TNG territory, yes Tasha was dead but she was fairly minor in my estimation (and it seemed like she kept coming back), then DS9 killed Jadzia but not really because there was always Ezri. So I got back into this nice safe world a couple of years ago, or so I thought. Even Nemesis which fell during the spell I was out of watching trek didn't really kill Data properly because there's the scene right at the end where B-4 starts singing and so you realise he has his memories, though I reckon by then TPTB were experiementing with a much darker side of trek.

So I agree with Brit, I don't like the way TPTB are taking my favourite fiction right now. Real life sucks, I'm fully aware happy endings aren't reality but I don't want the stuff I watch as escapism to be anything like reality! I know plenty would disagree, sadly for me including most of the current people in control of where 'official' trek is headed. I'm just glad I have the earlier episodes and fan fiction.

Dragging this back to the topic of Endgame.... I think them not getting back is a terrible idea. the whole point was that all along we knew they'd get back at the end. I think Endgame sucked and the way they got back was a huge cheat, but the idea of them not getting back is worse. I just wish they'd done it differently.

 

[Lynx]

No you are not right, you want something that isn't Trek to a lot of people. I don't like your interpretation. I want the illusion of Happily Ever After, and I am not alone in that. I don't want the current writers' interpretation of "rough waters". It isn't art and it's lazy writing. I don't want dead anyone period. You can have conflict without killing someone.

The thing is I know I'm not alone, just recently the "New York Times" ran an article that states, "In a recession, what people want is a happy ending."

Yup, I got back into trek partly because real life was pretty pants a while back, and you're always guaranteed a happy ending in Roddenberry's universe, right? I'm not old enough to have been there for the hoo hah when they killed Spock then changed their minds and brought him back, I didn't realise that hadn't been the plan all along until I started reading here. By the time I got into Trek the first time around we were safely into TNG territory, yes Tasha was dead but she was fairly minor in my estimation (and it seemed like she kept coming back), then DS9 killed Jadzia but not really because there was always Ezri. So I got back into this nice safe world a couple of years ago, or so I thought. Even Nemesis which fell during the spell I was out of watching trek didn't really kill Data properly because there's the scene right at the end where B-4 starts singing and so you realise he has his memories, though I reckon by then TPTB were experiementing with a much darker side of trek.

So I agree with Brit, I don't like the way TPTB are taking my favourite fiction right now. Real life sucks, I'm fully aware happy endings aren't reality but I don't want the stuff I watch as escapism to be anything like reality! I know plenty would disagree, sadly for me including most of the current people in control of where 'official' trek is headed. I'm just glad I have the earlier episodes and fan fiction.

Dragging this back to the topic of Endgame.... I think them not getting back is a terrible idea. the whole point was that all along we knew they'd get back at the end. I think Endgame sucked and the way they got back was a huge cheat, but the idea of them not getting back is worse. I just wish they'd done it differently.

I agree with what you have written here about happy endings and the premise of Star Trek.

As for "Endgame", I can see your point about them getting home and I did share that opinion too when I watched the series. The reason why I've toyed with the idea of them staying in the Delta Quadrant in recent years is that I'm very dissatisfied with the scenario in the "Voyager relaunch" books where the crew is split up, Kes and Neelix are missing and Janeway killed off. Having them in the Delta Quadrant would at least have kept the old gang together for more adventures.

 

[Frazzled]

The reason why I've toyed with the idea of them staying in the Delta Quadrant in recent years is that I'm very dissatisfied with the scenario in the "Voyager relaunch" books where the crew is split up, Kes and Neelix are missing and Janeway killed off. Having them in the Delta Quadrant would at least have kept the old gang together for more adventures.

I agree that anything would be better than the pile of poop Pocket books has served up to Voyager fans as a relaunch offering

That's not just because I'm a Janeway fan either. Almost everything about the first couple of books was completely unbelievable, extremely dark and nothing to do with the Trek universe I know and love - the most extreme example being torture without trial for Seven and Icheb at the supposedly very humane 24th century Starfleet HQ - Roddenberry must've been spinning in his grave at that one I thought we humans were supposed to be all wonderful and peace loving by this time? Yes completely unrealistic but thats the damn point!!!

The way things have gone from bad to much much worse should hardly have been surprising now I think about it.

All the more reason to watch the dvds I like and some of the older books and stick with fanfic for anything set post Endgame. Or even better - are there any decent fanfic Endgame rewrites anyone can recommend?

 

[kimc]

The thing is I know I'm not alone, just recently the "New York Times" ran an article that states, "In a recession, what people want is a happy ending." It goes so far to state that the only books that are making money or had a rise in readership last year are those with happy endings. You might not like it very much but it's true, your interpretation of what Trek should be is flat out of fashion now.

An interesting point. Trek started out during the time of the Vietnam War and civil unrest at home. It's easy to see how people living through that would want to tune in to a show that showed people of all backgrounds working together to explore the universe. Rumor even has it Martin Luthor King, Jr. was a fan of the show.

I know with the new BSG (Love it!) the trend has gone darker but then again it's easier to contemplate the darker side of humanity with a full belly and money in the bank. Now that people are losing their jobs and homes they don't want to be reminded that the people who live near them would kill them if just given a reason. Bring on the happy endings.

 

[Tomalak]

Rumor even has it Martin Luthor King, Jr. was a fan of the show.

Rumour? Nichelle Nichols might have mentioned it once or twice.

 

[Frazzled]

Strange to think now, writing in relatively racial tolerant 2009 England, that a Black woman on the bridge was such a huge deal.

Maybe we've got complacent now, we think we 21st century folk have got it sorted in real life so we don't need our happy endings on TV? Whereas those warring 1960s folk needed their escapism? Pish. Real life still stinks from where I'm sitting, I want my nice happy trek universe back please!

 

[Lynx]

The thing is I know I'm not alone, just recently the "New York Times" ran an article that states, "In a recession, what people want is a happy ending." It goes so far to state that the only books that are making money or had a rise in readership last year are those with happy endings. You might not like it very much but it's true, your interpretation of what Trek should be is flat out of fashion now.

An interesting point. Trek started out during the time of the Vietnam War and civil unrest at home. It's easy to see how people living through that would want to tune in to a show that showed people of all backgrounds working together to explore the universe. Rumor even has it Martin Luthor King, Jr. was a fan of the show.

I know with the new BSG (Love it!) the trend has gone darker but then again it's easier to contemplate the darker side of humanity with a full belly and money in the bank. Now that people are losing their jobs and homes they don't want to be reminded that the people who live near them would kill them if just given a reason. Bring on the happy endings.

Not to mention that we do need positive role models and positive stories in these dark days.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Bright stories illuminate how rundown our own world is in comparison, meanwhile darkstories acclimatize us tot he grit and depression.

At it's worst however, Voyager was perhaps offwhite.

The pilot of BSG had Edward James Almos spend 3 complete minutes hammering a rock into this guys face and blood was going everywhere and...

Whats the worst thing that happened on Voyager?

 

[Praetor]

The initial problem with VGR is that they tried to set up a premise in which the ship was limited in almost every way and in danger moreso than it would have been if it were still in the Alpha Quadrant - yet we almost certainly knew they would get home from the first episode, undercutting any sense of danger or threat to the ship. Happy ending? Sure. But it's also poor drama. No threat = no drama.

One might argue the same to be true for TOS, TNG, DS9, or even ENT as a dramatic conceit for the series to go on - although I might argue the stakes were of a different nature on the other series, especially ENT. Like DS9, VGR was created with a specific 'side' premise in mind, and a specific 'arc' to the premise of the show. If there isn't potential that the arc won't be fulfilled, is there any drama? As a result, the whole Delta Quadrant situation felt like a plot device and left the premise feeling hollow.

...Which might in fact be why the 'Endgame' we got tried to hammer into us that the voyage was the important part, not the destination... but the waters still feel muddy to me.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What?

Admiral janeway insisted that the destination was a hell of a lot more important than the second half of the journey. I did wonder why Kathy didn't ask herself about the good things that were going to happen in the next few years that they were about to reverse... because it couldn't all have been a turd sandwhich.

"some of the journey is more important than the destination."

And that all depends on what the destination is.

because getting home 2377 and getting home in 2387 are completely dfferent homes to be arriving home to.

"Some of the journey is more important than particular destinations."

 

[LtGodard]

The initial problem with VGR is that they tried to set up a premise in which the ship was limited in almost every way and in danger moreso than it would have been if it were still in the Alpha Quadrant - yet we almost certainly knew they would get home from the first episode, undercutting any sense of danger or threat to the ship. Happy ending? Sure. But it's also poor drama. No threat = no drama.

One might argue the same to be true for TOS, TNG, DS9, or even ENT as a dramatic conceit for the series to go on - although I might argue the stakes were of a different nature on the other series, especially ENT. Like DS9, VGR was created with a specific 'side' premise in mind, and a specific 'arc' to the premise of the show. If there isn't potential that the arc won't be fulfilled, is there any drama? As a result, the whole Delta Quadrant situation felt like a plot device and left the premise feeling hollow.

...Which might in fact be why the 'Endgame' we got tried to hammer into us that the voyage was the important part, not the destination... but the waters still feel muddy to me.

Bingo where's the excitement. It's like watching snakes on a plane .what did you expect. Personally i need a little drama someone else's problems make mine seem not so bad.If you want a happy ending read a fairy tale.

 

[Lynx]

Bright stories illuminate how rundown our own world is in comparison, meanwhile darkstories acclimatize us tot he grit and depression.

At it's worst however, Voyager was perhaps offwhite.

The pilot of BSG had Edward James Almos spend 3 complete minutes hammering a rock into this guys face and blood was going everywhere and...

Whats the worst thing that happened on Voyager?

We shall not acclimatize to grit and depression, we must fight it.

Therefore we need positive stories and positive role models. A positive attitude, visions of a bright future and the will to strive for it is what can save the world. As Jim Morrison said "We want the world and we want it now".

I must say that I find the scene from BSG described here real sick and crappy. Or to use a term from where I live: "Violence Porn". Tasteless, sick and without any meaning. I'm really happy that I didn't have to watch something similar on Voyager.

BSG is about losers who have wasted a whole planet and now continues to waste their lives in space while Star Trek is about the possibility for the development of humanity beyond the neanderthal state and for a better future.

Guess what I prefer?

 

[Tachyon]

The whole underlying philosophy in BSG and Trek are different. There is really no point to compare BSG and Voyager with each other in detail. Other is Trek show whereas other is not. The style is different. What made BSG good wouldn't have necessarily fit in the Star Trek context.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And how would you describe Andromeda?

 

[Tachyon]

Never watched Andromeda.

One more point to VOY vs. BSG here: VOY, as other Trek series (excluding ENT) are children of the 90s. It was different time then, with different emphasizes in storytelling. It seems to me that it has been a different ballgame in scifi realm during the last years - what kind of stories are told, what is the style of telling stories, what is emphasized / seen relevant and/or important, etc. I think the style in recent years has been closer to realism than it was in 90s and it is seen in every aspect of the episodes from storytelling to wardrope. I guess that was the one reason why I never warmed up to ENT - its style was too different to what I loved in TNG, DS9 and VOY. (another child of the 90s would be Babylon 5, which I absolutely LOVE) Perhaps I should give ENT a chance one day.

 

[Brit]

Bingo where's the excitement. It's like watching snakes on a plane .what did you expect. Personally i need a little drama someone else's problems make mine seem not so bad.If you want a happy ending read a fairy tale.

Star Trek is our fairy tail, if you want grit and muck go watch BSG. Don't go changeing our fairy tale to reflect something you already have. And by the way, Voyager is a starship run by women, do you think they would want a beat up grungy ship if they had the ability to keep it clean. In fact most military people that I've known and military bases, do pretty much everything they can to keep their places clean also.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Chute had plenty of grit and one of their better episodes, if I don't say so myself.

Hmmm?

Bright happy stories, Tachyon force on us as a people delusions of destiny. Most of us don't have a destiny, and if enough people with out a destiny clump together to force the tide of history, well the rest of us are quite doomed too because hope promotes sloth.

Blade Runner vs. (the first half of) Demolitionman?

 

[Tachyon]

I am forcing happy stories and delusion of destiny?


Ummm.... what?

I happen to like BSG a lot and I wouldn't describe Babylon 5, superior show compared to DS9, very merry one either. But one has to admit that Trek show made during the 90s and a scifi show done today have differences between them - writers, producers and directors may have very different approach to their work as ones working with Trek in the 90s. And Voyager's theme, how it was done, followed different kind of rule book than how BSG was done, for instance. And that was more or less my point. And because ENT was too different to TNG and VOY for instance, I didn't feel it at all. It lacked "the Trek feeling" for me. (And therefore I am still skeptic about the upcoming movie, but that is another discussion altogether)

True - Trek usually gave us more or less happy endings and it is (or at least was) its way, so to speak. Whereas others find it annoying, others appreciate it. It's apples and oranges. Nowadays it seems that "unhappy" and open endings are more common ones.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sorry

The formatting for the first two seasons of Enterprise were almost no different from TOS, TNG, Voyager and the first two seasons of DS9. Oroborus. Usually society dictates media dictates society but all the Star Trek producers were held in stasis for about 40 years.

 

[exodus]

The whole underlying philosophy in BSG and Trek are different. There is really no point to compare BSG and Voyager with each other in detail. Other is Trek show whereas other is not. The style is different. What made BSG good wouldn't have necessarily fit in the Star Trek context.

Bingo!