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Earth's Second Dark Age: From Eugenics War to First Contact?

TNG is more dated than VOY, DS9 and ENT in every way imaginable. It's incomprehensible that anyone would think the opposite.
The first few seasons or so of TNG were the worst.

Sure, they are very distinctively 80s. But, as is alluded to above, in another decade someone is going to look at the first few seasons of DS9 or Voyager and say "those are distinctively 90s."

There's nothing wrong with being dated, it an escapable reality of the entertainment industry. The point is, does it still entertain you decades later while it's reminding of another point in time.
 
The worst part isn't the 80's fashions and aesthetics. It was marrying those things to recycled TOS style plots, I think that's what made most of season 1 and 2 as bad as they were. But that's off topic
 
Nothing in "Past Tense" established the Neo-Trotskite movement to be responsible for the social and economic problems depicted in the episode.
But the episode does say that the Neo-Trotskite are not effectively dealing with the problems in France.

Yes. But that's not the point -- the point is that the Neo-Trots are not the ones who created the problems.

Rather, "Past Tense" established that France, then under the governance of a Gaullist party, was gripped by social unrest and student protests in the 2020s as part of the same pattern of economic decline and mass impoverishment that led to to the creation of the Sanctuary Districts ...
No, there was no connect made between the events in Europe and the creation of the sanctuary districts .

Just reviewed the scripts to "Past Tense" to verify my memory. You are correct in noting that no explicit connection is made. However, I would argue that the connection is implicit -- the episode makes it very clear that the American economy is in the midst of an economic downturn, resulting in a severe shortage of jobs for the people who need them. It seems improbable to me that France would simultaneously face large-scale civil unrest and student protests unless it, too, was in the economic duldrums -- and it seems improbable to me that the United States could be in severe recession without dragging down Europe with it.

While there was mention of a economic down turn in America, there was no sign of any (at all) "mass impoverishment."

The first scene in the processing center makes it clear that there's a severe shortage of jobs for the people who need them. And if the U.S. literally had so many jobless and homeless people that it began herding them into urban concentration camps, I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as "mass impoverishment."

If anything their economy, even with a resent down turn, would seem to be in somewhat better shape than our own, or at least in San Fransisco. The character of Chris Brynner said the sanctuary district in San Fransisco held "something like 10,000 people."

San Fransisco currently has a population of over 837,000 people, with a unemployment rate of 4.9%. In addition the official 2013 San Fransisco homeless count was 7,300 people.

First off, you can't look at a work of fiction written twenty years ago, depicting a world then thirty years into the future, and expect any exact statistics to be meaningful in comparison to the real world.

Second, "something like 10,000 people" is an extremely vague number--Chris could easily be rounding by a couple of thousand in either direction, as people often do when speaking off the cuff. Yet even if we take the number literally, it is still higher than the current homeless population.

Thirdly, "Past Tense" doesn't tell us anything about the overall poverty rate, which would be the most informative statistic about the health of the 2024 economy compared to that of the real-world 2014 economy. However, the episode does talk about people being forced into Sanctuary Districts if they lose their jobs; it is unclear if this occurs even if they still have their own housing.

... and lack of government action to fight inequality which caused the Bell Riots ...

Wrong, the Bell Riots were cause by government actions, and not the lack of them. Providing for shelter and job placement were fair ideas, but the government in typical "we'll fix everything" fashion went beyond that and herded people into the shelters and locked the doors behind them until as such time as the government found jobs for them.

The scene with Chris's rich friends -- "It's the only way to keep those people off the streets"--and dialogue from earlier in the story makes it clear that the Districts were initially created to help people, but that the government began to use them instead to control them and hide them away from the elites when the problem of unemployment began to seem overwhelming. I for one don't see any scenario in which that problem continues to mount unless there is a phenomenon of mass impoverishment.

Further, the episode established that one of the key problems was the repeal of the Federal Employment Act, which Webb and his allies wanted re-instated. So obviously the episode is criticizing the government both for insufficient quantity of helpful programs, and for terrible quality of one program created to help but perverted into a system of oppression.

a problem with capitalism
Oh please.

A situation in which mass numbers of people are rendered unemployed, impoverished, and homeless, is clearly a problem with capitalism. To call it anything else is to place loyalty to an ideology over respect for human needs.

Would they have been somehow better off with socialism?

Depends on your definition of "socialism."

According to the episode "Europe is falling apart." Europe (currently) is a socialist wonderland.

This is simply factually inaccurate. Private ownership of the means of production is still the basis for every single economy in Europe. A number of European countries have economies that are more social democratic than America's, but none of them -- not even Sweden's -- are socialist.

Secondly, the only clue the episode gives us about the relationship between European socialists and the economic crisis is the line establishing that the Gaullists (a capitalist political movement) were in power when France was faced with unrest and student protests, and that the Neo-Trots (one form of socialists) came to power to try to deal with the situation but were ineffective. We don't know if that means the Neo-Trots just won elections for Parliament, or if they actually tried to change the structure of the French economy.

Sisko (as Bell) said it best, the people in the sanctuary district wanted "to stop having to depend on handouts."

He also wanted the re-instatement of the Federal Employment Act, so he obviously isn't anti-government intervention.

And I can't imagine he wanted the District residents thrown onto the streets outside the District walls; their situation would be little improved there. One can favor government assistance without favoring government paternalism or government oppression.
 
TNG is more dated than VOY, DS9 and ENT in every way imaginable. It's incomprehensible that anyone would think the opposite.

Wait ten years before you decide that. Maybe TNG just seems more dated because it's more distant from us in time.
It's all relative of course. Right now, speaking for the present, I think TNG is indisputably more dated than DS9, VOY or ENT.
 
The only real problem I have with this whole thing is one I've said many times before: Earth's recovery from WW3 is just too damn quick.
I posted this before, if the countries best able to assist war ravaged countries in their rebuilding weren't participants in the third world war, this might explain the quick recovery.

One of the reasons I think America sat out the war.

The trouble there is our best look at the post-atomic war Earth is in the USA in First Contact. People are living in a shanty town next to a nuclear missile silo, and Lily talks about severe shortages. The implication is that at least some American cities were destroyed - why else would Lily assume the Borg attack is a resumption of hostilities "after all these years"?

Perhaps America was less badly affected than the Eastern nations, but it was hit. Europe seems relatively unscathed, based on what little we see of Paris and London.

My pet theory is that the Third World War was largely between India and China, as this "Eastern Coalition", initially united against America, turned on each other. It explains why we hardly see any Indian or Chinese people in Star Trek, despite one in three people in the world today being Indian or Chinese. Basically, Starfleet is overwhelmingly white, which suggests to me that the war disproportionately devastated Asia. It kind of ties in with Q's courtroom too, which has an eastern flavour.

A quick recovery? It seems much of Earth never really recovered.
 
My pet theory is that the Third World War was largely between India and China, as this "Eastern Coalition", initially united against America, turned on each other. It explains why we hardly see any Indian or Chinese people in Star Trek, despite one in three people in the world today being Indian or Chinese. Basically, Starfleet is overwhelmingly white, which suggests to me that the war disproportionately devastated Asia. It kind of ties in with Q's courtroom too, which has an eastern flavour.

I used to think that, but I've decided it's too implicitly -- if unintentionally -- racist. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that the pseudo-utopian future of Star Trek is one in which there are so few Asians.
 
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My pet theory is that the Third World War was largely between India and China, as this "Eastern Coalition", initially united against America, turned on each other. It explains why we hardly see any Indian or Chinese people in Star Trek, despite one in three people in the world today being Indian or Chinese. Basically, Starfleet is overwhelmingly white, which suggests to me that the war disproportionately devastated Asia. It kind of ties in with Q's courtroom too, which has an eastern flavour.

I used to think that, but I've decided it's too implicitly -- if unintentionally -- racist. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that the pseudo-utopian future of Star Trek is one in which there are so few Asians.

Well quite, it is difficult. But why do we see so few in Star Trek? Obviously in the real world it's to do with the availability of actors and extras in California, but if you're trying to pseudo-rationalise what we see on screen, then whatever explanation you come up with is implicitly racist. Maybe all the Asian Starfleet officers serve on ships with all the Andorians and Tellarites we never see.
 
But why do we see so few in Star Trek? Obviously in the real world it's to do with the availability of actors and extras in California, but if you're trying to pseudo-rationalise what we see on screen, then whatever explanation you come up with is implicitly racist. Maybe all the Asian Starfleet officers serve on ships with all the Andorians and Tellarites we never see.

Actually it's not about availability per se. The population of Los Angeles is under 30% non-Hispanic whites. Okay, it's only about 11% Asian/Pacific Islander, but that's a higher ratio than there is among Trek regulars. If the actor pool in Hollywood were truly representative of the available population, there'd be a lot fewer Anglo-Saxons and a lot more Asians. The reason the actor pool is so dominated by whites is because of entrenched white privilege in the system.

As for an in-story rationalization, not every culture shares the same values or ambitions. Historically, Europeans were motivated to explore and travel because their own continent was relatively lacking in wealth and resources and they needed to get them from elsewhere; but the Chinese were mostly content to stay home because they had all the wealth and power they needed already, and everyone else came to them. So maybe not every future culture on Earth is equally interested in joining Starfleet and exploring new worlds. Maybe a lot of people are content to stay on Earth -- not necessarily for the same reasons that existed in the past, but there could be cultural differences of one sort or another. Fans tend to overlook the fact that the view we get of the Federation is mostly limited to Starfleet itself, and doesn't necessarily represent the civilian population as a whole.

Then again, novelists like myself have done a lot to increase the diversity of Starfleet compared to what we got onscreen, which would suggest that the ethnic distribution of the particular Starfleet crews we've seen onscreen has been due largely to the luck of the draw. After all, they're only a small sample of the whole.
 
TNG is more dated than VOY, DS9 and ENT in every way imaginable. It's incomprehensible that anyone would think the opposite.

Wait ten years before you decide that. Maybe TNG just seems more dated because it's more distant from us in time.
It's all relative of course. Right now, speaking for the present, I think TNG is indisputably more dated than DS9, VOY or ENT.

So, right now, speaking for the present, the oldest series in your list is indisputably more dated than its younger successors.
 
the countries best able to assist war ravaged countries in their rebuilding weren't participants in the third world war

The trouble there is our best look at the post-atomic war Earth is in the USA in First Contact. People are living in a shanty town next to a nuclear missile silo, and Lily talks about severe shortages. The implication is that at least some American cities were destroyed - why else would Lily assume the Borg attack is a resumption of hostilities "after all these years"?
Good points. But look at where the shanty town was located, next to a intact silo in the middle of a forest. The silo still exists and the forest doesn't look as if it was burned a decade before. The missile base that the silo is a part of was never destroyed. Even if that one silo was spared, a nuclear attack on the missile complex would have burned the forest.

Perhaps America was less badly affected than the Eastern nations, but it was hit.
Yet Cochrane is capable of traveling by train, and San Fransisco (one of five major West coast ports) apparently was never hit.

My pet theory is that the Third World War was largely between India and China, as this "Eastern Coalition", initially united against America, turned on each other.
Similar to my theory, except American was never involve. The war mainly was between China, India and Pakistan. All currently nuclear powers. The majority of the 600 million killed were in northern India and western China.

which suggests to me that the war disproportionately devastated Asia
TOS is some two centuries after the war. If the majority of China and India were "infected" with Western ideas and culture during the rebuilding process, ideas and culture which today includes slow/no population growth, the population in China and India might never have increased much beyond post war levels.

A quick recovery? It seems much of Earth never really recovered.
Deanna said "Poverty, disease, war, they'll all be gone within the next fifty years," (a statement which doesn't bear close examination).

This doesn't mean the Earth and it's people "recovered" in other ways, in the same time period. Vast areas of the combatants countries would have had to of been evacuated, the numbers of refugees would have been staggering.

.
 
If the majority of China and India were "infected" with Western ideas and culture during the rebuilding process, ideas and culture which today includes slow/no population growth, the population in China and India might never have increased much beyond post war levels.

Haven't you got it kind of backward? The Chinese government imposed a "one child per family" policy decades ago. China and both Koreas have lower population growth rates than the US, and Japan has one of the lowest growth rates in the world. India does have a high growth rate, but the highest population growth rates are in Africa and the Middle East. So I don't know where you could possibly have gotten the idea that population control is a "Western" value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate
 
But why do we see so few in Star Trek? Obviously in the real world it's to do with the availability of actors and extras in California, but if you're trying to pseudo-rationalise what we see on screen, then whatever explanation you come up with is implicitly racist. Maybe all the Asian Starfleet officers serve on ships with all the Andorians and Tellarites we never see.

Actually it's not about availability per se. The population of Los Angeles is under 30% non-Hispanic whites. Okay, it's only about 11% Asian/Pacific Islander, but that's a higher ratio than there is among Trek regulars. If the actor pool in Hollywood were truly representative of the available population, there'd be a lot fewer Anglo-Saxons and a lot more Asians. The reason the actor pool is so dominated by whites is because of entrenched white privilege in the system.
To make matters worse, many of the minority actors on trek were under heavy make up. Michael Dorn as Worf for instance.
 
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To make matters worse, many of the minority actors on trek were under heavy make up. Michael Dorn as Worf for instance.
Dorn would be a bad example. He's a regular. And of the minority actors who are regulars, he and Roxanne Dawson are the only ones in "heavy make up".
 
To make matters worse, many of the minority actors on trek were under heavy make up. Michael Dorn as Worf for instance.
Dorn would be a bad example. He's a regular. And of the minority actors who are regulars, he and Roxanne Dawson are the only ones in "heavy make up".
Paul Winfield in darmok then?
Yes. Several Klingons were played by minority actors as well. OTOH many were played by white actors as well.
 
So I don't know where you could possibly have gotten the idea that population control is a "Western" value.
My idea would be that it would cease to be something that was imposed by the Chinese government and the Chinese police, both of which would debatably be gone, and become more a social/cultural trait as it is in the west.

Japan is experiencing negative population growth not through government prohibitions, but because women are for their own reasons not producing children and have the ability to do this.

:devil:
 
^What you say about Japan proves my point. It's not a value that's intrinsic to the West. There are numerous non-Western countries on Earth that maintain lower population growth rates than America or Europe do. And some Western countries, notably in South America and the Caribbean, have rather high birth rates.
 
^What you say about Japan proves my point. It's not a value that's intrinsic to the West. There are numerous non-Western countries on Earth that maintain lower population growth rates than America or Europe do. And some Western countries, notably in South America and the Caribbean, have rather high birth rates.
The birth rate in the US has actually gone down. US population keeps going up because of immigration. Lower birth rates seem to be linked to education, particularly of women, and higher standard of living.
 
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