Early Review of Picard Season 3

[RuleofAcuisition17]

You named the bridge characters who are main characters. The ones not making an impact on your brain aren't main characters so it makes sense they aren't making an impact on your brain. Just like the same helm ensigns that were in TNG for dozens of episodes have no impact on my brain either and we also don't know who all those officers standing in the back of the bridge in TNG were or what they were doing.

If TNG were airing now would we have posts saying "we've seen the same helm officer on the enterprise-d bridge for over 50 episodes and we know nothing about her!"?

Yes, yes we would because as I said audience expectations have changed.

Even then we usually know most of the bridge crew, and Voyager outright made their helmsman a main character in Tom Paris as well. Which continues with Enterprise's Travis Mayweather and SNW with Erica Ortegas.

All I remember of Discovery's Helmsman Kayla Detmer (who's name I had to look up) is she's more present in scenes and events rather than helping to do things about it. Like reading her page has refreshed some bits, some stuff like her personal relationships and other parts are woeful even on the wiki. She's had no real character episode for herself which would cement her in my mind better as a character. Which again points to the suffering of so many early seasons of the show being focused on a single character's hero's journey when previously it was all about the Hero Ship.

Like, from TNG and SNW I know who the heads of security are, I know who the weapons officers are, because they've had episodes and times which has almost entirely been for them it allows the actors to breathe and character to develop. It does a bit too many of them dirty, in my opinion.

 

[donners22]

Even then we usually know most of the bridge crew, and Voyager outright made their helmsman a main character in Tom Paris as well. Which continues with Enterprise's Travis Mayweather and SNW with Erica Ortegas.

Mayweather’s lack of role is a running joke and Ortegas didn’t seem to have any real characterisation beyond making snarky remarks. I find Detmer more interesting than either of them.

 

[brandnewfan]

No they won't, jeeze.

It’s happened to me before in other threads by people who are posting in this thread.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Mayweather’s lack of role is a running joke and Ortegas didn’t seem to have any real characterisation beyond making snarky remarks. I find Detmer more interesting than either of them.

Detmer vs those 2 is a terrible choice for "proving" Disco doesn't flesh out bridge crew.

 

[gvn2fly]

Detmer vs those 2 is a terrible choice for "proving" Disco doesn't flesh out bridge crew.

Especially since Detmer isn't part of the main cast and those other two are/were.

 

[gvn2fly]

Yes, yes we would because as I said audience expectations have changed.

To each their own. Mine haven't changed that I need to know about recurring extras or minor characters. Discovery has a lot of main and recurring characters. I don't think we necessarily need to know more about extras/minor characters just because they happen to work on the bridge.
So now that we're in 2023 do you wish TNG had developed those helm ensigns and background people on the bridge? Did not developing hurt the show?

 

[Lord Garth]

It’s happened to me before in other threads by people who are posting in this thread.

I looked through any response I ever might have made to you in the past. This is the "worst" one I can think of, and even there, I'm defending own Star Trek viewing history when you said we'll automatically like anything just because it's Star Trek. I said, and I quote...

September 8th, 2022

This is false. I don't automatically like DSC just because it's Star Trek.

For the record, I've dropped three Star Trek shows during their run: VOY, ENT, and LD. I have the ability to turn it off, unlike most of you. I've also been very openly critical of the TNG Movies and am not a fan of the Kelvin Films. I can be objective. I just don't have the same tastes as yours.

And while I like SNW, it's overrated as Hell. I don't even post in the forum because of how thick most people lay it on over there. No, it's not the best thing since sliced bread and saying it (or heavily implying it) 1,000 times doesn't make it any more true.

That's not pouncing on you for having a different opinion about Star Trek, that's me defending mine. And there was nothing wrong with anything I said there.

In every other response I've made to you -- and they were far and few between -- they were also pretty civil.

April 28th, 2022
February 13th, 2022
August 7th, 2020
July 27th, 2020
July 27th, 2020
May 26th, 2020
May 15th, 2020

And those have been our only interactions ever.

Okay, maybe this one on August 7th, 2020, where I give my view on hate-watching. But even there, I'm talking about why I'm against the concept. I'm not attacking you for having an opinion that differs from mine. Exact quote...

I stopped watching VOY after the fifth season and I skipped out on ENT. I didn't like them, so I stopped watching. Because I did that, now I'm in a position where I can tell people I think they should stop watching DSC and PIC or even LD if they don't like them, and not feel like I'm a hypocrite.

Eventually, I did watch late-VOY and ENT, but not until much, much later. Long after they were over. When I could binge them quickly so as to not drag it out.

Hate-watching is the worst thing to do. If you think you "have to watch it all" just because you're a fan, you're watching for all the wrong reasons. Watch something because you enjoy it, not because you feel an obligation or a commitment. You can walk away and still come back later. This isn't the Mafia.

So, as far as I can see, I've never gone after you for your opinion of DSC, PIC, or anything else. Not even once. Others, sure, (depending on the nature of what I was responding to), but not you. I get the sense you don't particularly like me, which is why I feel like I have to point this out.

 

[KennyB]

Let’s get back on track and not start listing personal “wrongs”…….

 

[James Cole]

Speaking for myself, I simply find Trek subpar relative to other contemporary media I consume. I don't think NuTrek is particularly good at anything. There's been much better sci-fi in recent years - certainly far better drama. I don't find it all too meaningful to compare it to shows produced 30 -50+ years ago that happen to share the same brand name.

As a 30+ year fan of Trek, these shortcomings have been disappointing to say the least. But in more recent times, that disappointment has transitioned into apathy. Even if Picard S3 is substantially better than S2 (and my goodness, you would hope it's better), I'm still not sure I'd care. The damage has been done. It's not irreparable, but I personally would need something spectacular from Trek to revitalize any good will or excitement for the future.

A very fair point. NuTrek really has suffered from bad writing despite the massive budgets. Trek alumni are were running with THE EXPANSE, THE ORVILLE, FOR ALL MANKIND... making for a complicated A/B comparison. DISCOVERY actually had some great staff writers with genre experience at the beginning, only to gradually replace them with the writing staff of REVENGE and GOOD CHRISTIAN BITCHES. And even these people were then replaced by CW vampire show people. The showrunner for the second half of PICARD season 1 was a Pulitzer prize winning novelist, but made many bad decisions. And if CBS was so happy with his work, why was he sent off to develop a show for Showtime that's made no progress in three years? At the same time, maybe I'm biased in liking their work on 12 MONKEYS, but I tend to give several of the PICARD season 2 people the benefit of the doubt that they did suffer from executive interference, constant Covid changes, and Akiva Goldsman not spending enough time in the editing bay to make sure the story actually flowed together.

PICARD season 2 is actually my favorite season of live action NuTrek thus far. I'm probably a lot harder on SNW than others because of all the canon and tone stuff.

What I find interesting is the bad-faith trolls don't really seem to love anything new that other people generally hate. They only seem to hate things other people love. Like, I can't think of a single thing they point to for "good storytelling" which is thought of as bad by the "other side."

Maybe the Cara Dune character from MANDALORIAN?

 

[Captain Robau]

As a white guy 11 from 50, I feel I'm allowed to say that.

I'm glad you're able to hold that view and I respect your opinion.

Now, I'll give you mine - your way of thinking is entitled and you are not the spokesperson for that demographic. I wish we could really get back to the humanist aspects where we all respect each other regardless of sex or race. I rather think of people as individuals instead of grouping them in arbitrary paint by the numbers groups.

Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it and encourage you to quit stereotyping people.

 

[fireproof78]

To each their own. Mine haven't changed that I need to know about recurring extras or minor characters. Discovery has a lot of main and recurring characters. I don't think we necessarily need to know more about extras/minor characters just because they happen to work on the bridge.
So now that we're in 2023 do you wish TNG had developed those helm ensigns and background people on the bridge? Did not developing hurt the show?

Exactly. Watching TOS illustrates the variety that served on the bridge. I don't expect all characters on the bridge to be developed because that's not my experience.

Mileage will vary.

 

[Tuskin38]

Ortegas didn’t seem to have any real characterisation beyond making snarky remarks.

I think you need to rewatch.

 

[FederationHistorian]

All I remember of Discovery's Helmsman Kayla Detmer (who's name I had to look up) is she's more present in scenes and events rather than helping to do things about it. Like reading her page has refreshed some bits, some stuff like her personal relationships and other parts are woeful even on the wiki. She's had no real character episode for herself which would cement her in my mind better as a character. Which again points to the suffering of so many early seasons of the show being focused on a single character's hero's journey when previously it was all about the Hero Ship.

Even Stamets has been pushed to the side despite being a main character. Not sure why its a surprise that Detmer and the rest aren’t getting character episodes. Though Detmer was somewhat the focus for the first half of S3, and the middle decks crew played a role in the final couple episodes of S3. And then they all got promotions and a line to say in almost every episode in S4.

This largely has to do with the writers not knowing how to do character episodes with recurring characters that include the main characters in the plot. Even though we saw it all the time in TNG, DS9, VOY and even ENT (ex. Barclay, Riker & Troi; Keiko & O’Brien; Naomi & Neelix; Cutler and Phlox).

 

[gvn2fly]

This largely has to do with the writers not knowing how to do character episodes with recurring characters that include the main characters in the plot. Even though we saw it all the time in TNG, DS9, VOY and even ENT (ex. Barclay, Riker & Troi; Keiko & O’Brien; Naomi & Neelix; Cutler and Phlox).

Those shows also had 26 episodes per season to work with and the episodic nature of those shows makes character episodes a bit easier to do. If Voyager was only 10-13 episodes a year would people really want one of those episodes focused on Naomi and Neelix? Or a Keiko and Obrien episode during a 10 episode hypothetical take back DS9 season.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Those shows also had 26 episodes per season to work with and the episodic nature of those shows makes character episodes a bit easier to do. If Voyager was only 10-13 episodes a year would people really want one of those episodes focused on Naomi and Neelix? Or a Keiko and Obrien episode during a 10 episode hypothetical take back DS9 season.

Why is that a limitation?

Say there are three character episodes in a ten episode season. And the A plot and B plots of these character episodes centers around the recurring characters interacting with the main cast (ex. Detmer & Burnham and Owo & Saru in the first episode, then Nilsson & Culber, and Rhys & Stamets in the next episode, and in the final episode its Linus & Tilly and Bryce, Adira & Reno). And whatever the episode is about and whatever they discuss ends up related to the over arching plot of the season.

Nothing is taken way from the main cast, and the recurring characters get a bit of development that allows the audience to care bout them a little more.

Saying the audience doesn’t want to see that is also making assumptions that the audience is entertained with the characters the writers want focus on. When that may not be the case.

 

[fireproof78]

Why is that a limitation?

Time is always a limitation.

Saying the audience doesn’t want to see that is also making assumptions that the audience is entertained with the characters the writers want focus on. When that may not be the case.

And how in the world are the writers supposed to know that in the middle of a season? Unless I'm misreading, but this strikes me as a bit of "writing by committee" which creates it's own problems. For one, what if I care deeply about a character no one else does? Should the writers cater to me? The "audience" is too large to write this way.

 

[Discovery McDiscoveryFace]

Good listen.

I agree with him on Discovery. Four seasons in and I know nothing about the bridge crew; who they are, what their ranks are, what they do on the ship, etc. .

I simply work on the premise made at the start of Disco that only three of the bridge crew are main characters, unlike other ship-based series (EG voyager had 5, TNG 6, TOS 5 etc).

 

[fireproof78]

I simply work on the premise made at the start of Disco that only three of the bridge crew are main characters, unlike other ship-based series (EG voyager had 5, TNG 6, TOS 5 etc).

And that is a more accurate read of the set up rather than what Trek has done in the past. It was oriented around Burnham, Saru, and Tilly, and Stamets and Lorca, at first, then it shifted slightly, but retained more Burnham and Saru. It's not driven as an ensemble piece, but closer to TOS or even early TNG with Kirk and Spock, and Picard and Data (at least initially).

 

[donners22]

I think you need to rewatch.

Nope. Watched the whole season in a few weeks just last month. Found her entirely pointless.

 

[Wouter]

Other issues I had with the finale (which I rewatched yesterday) was Soji being upset that Picard was having health problems on La Sirena at the same time she was working on the signal that would kill him and all life anyway! WHAT??

That's a good point, and an illustration of what was wrong with the Picard S1 finale. Season 1 had its moments, with ups and downs, but as a whole the story was quite compelling till the finale failed to make good use of elements established earlier (the ex-Borg and their cube, the Romulan spy with a conscience), pulled out weird stunts like the magical repair device, the space defence flowers and double copy/paste fleets (while a fleet wasn't needed at all, just put a couple of ships on both sides) and especially, as you note, had utterly baffling behaviour of the Soji character (but also the reactions toward her later, which ignored her apparent attempt at galaxy-wide genocide).

Arguably, the finale proved Oh right about the Androids being a major threat. It's like the writers only cared about Picard and Data, and nothing else.