Early Criticism: What’s Unfounded and What Isn’t

[Nerys Myk]

I highly doubt that any of those points will be addressed nor the ones posed in the watchmojo video.

We've literally been talking about Ake and her "command style" for the last page or so.

 

[ichab]

Let me go at this a different way.

Is this show bringing in the Gen Z kids? At the end of the day, the IP needs to keep bringing in new fans.

I ask because I flew back from Gallifrey One (a Doctor Who convention) today, and I didn't see the Gen Z kids like I did with the Millennial kids when the show was restarted in 2005. Ncuti's Doctor run was really progressive, but I'm not seeing the new fans like I did with David and Matt. If anything, the average age appears to be getting older.

The biggest risk with SFA is that it turns off the older fans and doesn't bring in new ones. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the old audience seeing a Klingon in a skirt would turn them off, and I'm not convinced that it will bring in new ones to replace those that it loses. We saw Ncuti's Doctor in a skirt, but I didn't see the audience numbers going up. Spectacle isn't story.

So I'm going go with something that Mark Strickson (Turlough) said at Gallifrey One. He quoted Hitchcock and said that the three most important things are: story, story, and story.

Bingo. Write a great story with characters that the audience wants to invest in and the rest will take care of itself.

 

[fireproof78]

Define "great story".

 

[Nerys Myk]

Define "great story".

One I like.

 

[Michael]

Back when it was current I watched it along with my roomate for four years. I know the show very well. It was the typical teen drama that I can't stand.

Well, “typical teen drama” is a far cry from “brain dead type of television”, and I don’t think I would have felt the need to set the record straight on that show if that was the wording you used originally.

Don't throw insults at me just because I called a show you like brain dead. I wasn't attacking you, I was making my opinion about a style of show known which is perfectly reasonable under the rule guidelines.

I was neither insulting nor attacking you. I merely suggested your opinion about a show might be prejudiced, because it read to me like you didn’t even watch it, since your assessment of it was so over-the-top off-base. Look, I genuinely couldn’t give a rat’s ass about whether you like or don’t like Dawson’s Creek, but “brain dead television” it just wasn’t. Maybe if you don't like your assertions challenged, a message board is not the right place for you?

I didn't just mention Dawson's Creek, I also mentioned others too, which you selectively edited out.

Yeah, because I haven’t watched any of the other shows you mentioned and wanted to make clear what part of your post I’m responding to. But thanks for the insinuation that I somehow did something shady there, I guess.

If you can't handle reading that, don't participate in a criticism thread.

That‘s a little funny, considering we’re almost on page ten of you white knighting for some idiot who threw a tantrum because a fucking Klingon wore a skirt, and skirts are gay, and gay is icky.

I'm sorry, but you are one crappy moderator.

Oh, you wound me! How will I ever be able to handle the fact that you consider me a “crappy moderator”?

 

[bdub76]

Define "great story".

This is very subjective.

However, I have been reading titles from this list, and most have been good:

Pulitzer Prize for Fiction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For film, there are a lot of great ones on this list:

The Greatest Films of All Time

In 1952, the Sight and Sound team had the novel idea of asking critics to name the greatest films of all time. The tradition became decennial, increasing in size and prestige as the decades passed. The Sight and Sound poll is now a major bellwether of critical opinion on cinema and this...

www.bfi.org.uk

Folks that consume a lot of content know what they enjoy watching.

And if it doesn't get enough views, it will be canceled regardless if it's good or not.

 

[fireproof78]

This is very subjective.

Exactly.

And if it doesn't get enough views, it will be canceled regardless if it's good or not.

Also extremely true.

 

[ichab]

I was neither insulting nor attacking you. I merely suggested your opinion about a show might be prejudiced, because it read to me like you didn’t even watch it, since your assessment of it was so over-the-top off-base. Look, I genuinely couldn’t give a rat’s ass about whether you like or don’t like Dawson’s Creek, but “brain dead television” it just wasn’t. Maybe if you don't like your assertions challenged, a message board is not the right place for you?

Saying someone is prejudiced is an attack. I have no problem with someone saying they like a show or disagree, but you went way beyond that and you know it. Let's just end it there and move on.

 

[ichab]

Define "great story".

Best of Both Worlds, City on the Edge of Forever, The Visitor, Way of the Warrior, Sins of the Father, ....you know...stories that are considered by most fandom as great.

 

[Michael]

Saying someone is prejudiced is an attack. I have no problem with someone saying they like a show or disagree, but you went way beyond that and you know it. Let's just end it there and move on.

Well, I literally just meant that I suspected you were judging it without having seen it and I explained why I thought that. It really just didn’t compute for me how an award winning, fan favorite, cult TV show was somehow “brain dead type of television”. An insult was not my intention and I apologize if it read that way. I’ll agree that it’s a good idea to just drop it.

 

[ichab]

Well, I literally just meant that I suspected you were judging it without having seen it and I explained why I thought that. It really just didn’t compute for me how an award winning, fan favorite, cult TV show was somehow “brain dead type of television”. An insult was not my intention and I apologize if it read that way. I’ll agree that it’s a good idea to just drop it.

Thank you. I apologize too.

 

[CT_Phipps]

My opinion is two fold:

1. The more people complain, the more the show will be watched

2. The people complaining about a skirt aren't engaging with the material but photos of the show. They aren't talking about Jayden's parents for example because they didn't watch it.

 

[fireproof78]

Best of Both Worlds, City on the Edge of Forever, The Visitor, Way of the Warrior, Sins of the Father, ....you know...stories that are considered by most fandom as great.

I don't think they are great. They're good but I'm not able to build a show on the one concept.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Let me go at this a different way.

Is this show bringing in the Gen Z kids? At the end of the day, the IP needs to keep bringing in new fans.

I ask because I flew back from Gallifrey One (a Doctor Who convention) today, and I didn't see the Gen Z kids like I did with the Millennial kids when the show was restarted in 2005. Ncuti's Doctor run was really progressive, but I'm not seeing the new fans like I did with David and Matt. If anything, the average age appears to be getting older.

The biggest risk with SFA is that it turns off the older fans and doesn't bring in new ones. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the old audience seeing a Klingon in a skirt would turn them off, and I'm not convinced that it will bring in new ones to replace those that it loses. We saw Ncuti's Doctor in a skirt, but I didn't see the audience numbers going up. Spectacle isn't story.

So I'm going go with something that Mark Strickson (Turlough) said at Gallifrey One. He quoted Hitchcock and said that the three most important things are: story, story, and story.

You've explained it beautifully. NUTrek isn't bringing in new fans and kind of alienating a lot of old ones.
Last time NuTrek brought new fans was in 2009 but they mishandled the Kelvin Timeline horribly.

Yeah even as someone who's broadly enjoying SFA, the idea that it's going to be successful in bringing in Gen Z/Alpha kids is insane. Somehow it actually feels even more like it's aimed at 30+ year old people than SNW does.

Something about the slightly odd mix of decades-old teen drama tropes/aesthetics, callbacks to 30 - 60 year old Star Trek episodes, and the faux-"cool" writing which is agonisingly millennial.

TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and in some ways DSC brought in fresh new things which SNW, LD or PRO and now SFA isn't really bringing in.
Constant callbacks was fine at first but now it's become tiresome.

Bingo. Write a great story with characters that the audience wants to invest in and the rest will take care of itself.

Exactly.

Define "great story".

Something that entices the masses and causes most of the viewing audience to enjoy it together?

 

[fireproof78]

Something that entices the masses and causes most of the viewing audience to enjoy it together?

So Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek IV?

 

[CT_Phipps]

So Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek IV?

Galaxy Quest.

 

[ichab]

I don't think they are great.

And you would be in the minority on that opinion.

They're good but I'm not able to build a show on the one concept.

What "one concept?" You asked what I thought were great stories and I gave you episodes that are considered top tier Star Trek. SFA wishes it had writers that good.

 

[fireproof78]

And you would be in the minority on that opinion.

And?

great stories and I gave you episodes that are considered top tier Star Trek. SFA wishes it had writers that good.

I'm trying to get an idea of food stories that could fill a season. It can all be top tier nor do I want all top tier. Statically unlikely.

ACADEMY is a non living thing and has no wishes.

 

[firehawk12]

Yeah even as someone who's broadly enjoying SFA, the idea that it's going to be successful in bringing in Gen Z/Alpha kids is insane. Somehow it actually feels even more like it's aimed at 30+ year old people than SNW does.

Something about the slightly odd mix of decades-old teen drama tropes/aesthetics, callbacks to 30 - 60 year old Star Trek episodes, and the faux-"cool" writing which is agonisingly millennial.

Yeah, the show really feels like old people trying to write like young people. lol

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, the show really feels like old people trying to write like young people. lol

They're troping pretty hard. Some archetypes are eternal