Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by wayoung, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If @fireproof78 wants to check out the Brian Herbert/KJA novels, that's his prerogative.

    Insisting that they're bad and shouldn't exist or be read is just closed-minded gatekeeping.
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    To be fair, I did say my interest was born out in part by the insistence they are bad.
     
  3. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If you can divorce them from the originals the house trilogy and the butlerian jihad trilogy are standard pop sci fi. Same stuff KJA wrote for star wars. Enjoyable enough for what they are. If you're a fan of that you'll probably like them well enough.

    After that they took a noticeable downward turn. And they also became impossible to divorce from the OG materials, being direct sequels and interquels. It's also around then KJA started saying anyone who preferred the OG books over his novels were "Talifans" which did not sit well with the fanbase....
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know if I divorce them so much as they don't carry any weight at all. It's like looking at fan art to me, or even official art. It is one artist's interpretation of another artist's work. It can't really take away from the original, at least as far as weight and importance to me. Dune was something I grew up reading, writing ideas for, and playing games from. So, these books will carry as much weight as the Dune 2000 RTS game.

    Not saying that Brian Herbert or Kevin Anderson are wonderful people. But, their views on the original work mean little in terms of personal enjoyment.

    Take that as you will.
     
  5. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well give them a go then and best wishes to you. Some people do enjoy them.
     
  6. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Personally, I'm fine just ignoring all of the nuDune stuff because experience has taught me it's just not worth the energy.

    Yes, the "house trilogy" that was first out of the gate was OK. Passable pulp sci-fi; Which is kind of a problem since Dune wasn't really pulp sci-fi, and neither were any of Frank's sequels. It's not just the shift in the quality of writing it's the implicit level of intelligence behind the writing and the shift in tone. Even when Frank was all but phoning it in in the later novels, he still cared enough to imbue the text with layers and some nuance.

    Next up was I think the Butlarian Jihad books, which is a story many fans were very curious about since it's some of Dune's deep lore; akin to the first and second age stuff in Tolkien's works. And what we got was...mostly more of the same, only worse. Paper thin characters, schlocky horror cliché in place of an actual antagonist, and a plot so convoluted and yet so boring that it really didn't need 3 books to play out. This is not just a step down from greatness, or failing to live up to the impossible standards of a genius. It's minimum effort hackery. They didn't even *try* to honour Frank's work, indeed they actively tried to *replace* it.

    For me the final insult was the "conclusion" to Frank's original novel series. Which managed to be even more superficial, less sensical and weirdly forgettable. Worse, it was basically a crappy sequel to their own other books in disguise, and again stretched out to several books when one would have more than sufficed. I gather after that there's been more, but I don't care. Learnt my lesson. Not interested.

    Now here's the thing; while I also have no skin in the game when it comes to KJA & BH as people (though KJA also being in on some of the most dire crap in the old Star Wars EU doesn't help matters.) But most accounts I've heard of their interactions with the fanbase, combined with the stagnant creativity and diminishing returns in writing quality leaves me inclined to take most of what I hear at face value and just avoid it altogether.

    Dune has the potential to be a *great* franchise. It could have been to epic sci-fi what Tolkien is the epic fantasy...but the Herbert estate doesn't seem to care. It seems to only want to harvest the maximum profits from the minimum investment. Low effort. Lowest common denominator. Creatively bankrupt. Tripe.

    And if anyone else what's to go read it; fine! I truly hope you enjoy it. But please don't make out that they rest of us that do not share that opinion are being mindlessly critical, or trying to hold something to an impossible standard. We've been to that restaurant, we've been served the rancid meat, and we saw the rat droppings by the kitchen. We're not in any hurry to go back there. The one star rating was overly generous. You go nuts, but for us; no thank you!
     
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  7. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I got the impression that BH doesn't understand his father's work and KJA doesn't care. I might well be doing them both a disservice but I couldn't form any other conclusion given what they produced, which effectively took a massive dump on FH's legacy.
     
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  8. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Honestly, I don't mind the BH/KJA books. They keep me entertained, mostly. I think the Jihad trilogy were the only books I was less than enthused with. The Butlerian Jihad itself was an okay book, but I lost attention with The Machine Crusade and The Battle of Corrin barely held my attention.

    I will say. BH and KJA could use to tone it down with the graphic violence. It's not that I'm squeamish about that stuff, but reading about someone shitting their pants as their arms were pulled out of their sockets with the blood spraying all over the place is a bit much. I get the impression this seems to be a KJA thing and is very common in all his books, Dune, Star Wars, and his original fiction.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No where was that my implication. I would not accuse anyone of being mindless.
     
  10. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Wow, that does seem a bit excessive. Like you, I'm not that squeamish, but that just seems unnecessarily graphic, just for the hell of it.
     
  11. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    One of the butlerian jihad books had a character with my name dying horribly near the start. This was after I'd been sending KJA questions for about 3 years from fans on the site I helped run.

    I never found out if it was on purpose or a coincidence. My name is pretty common so it could be a legit coincidence.

    I like to pretend it was on purpose though, for my own ego.

    I think it's one of the few books to survive my house burning down as two days prior to the fire my ex had boxed all my dune books up and left them at a friends so I had them to read before the movie came out and she didn't know which ones I wanted and didn't want to just boxed all of them (I had been buying the house and Butlerian jihad hardcovers from clearance bins back in the day).
     
  12. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've been tempted to give the BH/KJA books a try a few times, just to see if they are really that bad. The more I hear what people have to say about, the more I'm starting to think that yes they really are that bad.
     
  13. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If you like Dune and you want more, I honestly think your time would be better spent checking out other works by Frank Herbert than with any pale imitations.
    None of it is quite up the the level of Dune of course, but the Pandora/WorShip series and 'The Dosadi Experiment' are MILES better than anything KJA has ever written.
     
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  14. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I didn't read much of the expanded novels apart from the first House series and a few pages of the Butlerian Jihad way back and all i can remember is that they can't hold a candle to the original.

    I compare this to fast food vs. a real meal in a Michelin Star restaurant - both are considered food, both will fill you and sustain you but ultimately you know which is the better kind of food. However sometimes you just want a quick burger and fries just because and there's nothing wrong with it. Let everyone make up their own mind about the expanded universe books.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think expecting the original is what led to my dissatisfaction with the sequel books.
     
  16. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    One learns from his mistakes - whenever there is something very well done, be it a book, movie, music etc and there is a sequel or something that is based off i automatically reduce my expectations and so far it worked well. I am not too disappointed if it doesn't turn out as well as the original and sometimes pleasantly surprised when it's actually good.
     
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  17. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  18. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah they've been out for quite awhile. Paul is guarding my spices.
     
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  19. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Those are nice.
     
  20. Starbreaker

    Starbreaker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've been defending the House Trilogy for 20 years now. I used to take my birthday money every year and go blow $20 on a hardcover as a teenager the day they came out. Yes, there are diminishing returns on every book, but the vitriol that is spewed is so bizarre. Brian Herbert is in his 70s and people still send him death threats.
     
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