Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by wayoung, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    It sucks in the moment, but a hundred years from now, Frank Herbert's work will still be remembered and Brian & Anderson's won't.
     
  2. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    8000 years in to the future, mankind scattered across the universe and you have the sort of situation where Earth is just a vague memory/legend (same as in Asimov's Foundation series).

    Also I think Dune was the only one to have an appendice but don't recall anything about Earth.

    Even in the book in the section on how the Fremen first arrived on Arrakis, they talk of another planet (Bela Teluse? - I find the section of the book boring and tend to skip though it shows Alia's abilities).

    The Dune wiki says that Earth was mentioned in the journals of Leto II and mention by the Reverend Mother Darwi Odrade so look like it doesn't come up until Herectics of Dune (which I might have tried to read 30+ years ago).

    So no mention direct referece in Dune it's self or the appendix.
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hmm...whelp, my memory is flawed.
     
  4. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Earth, or more specifically Hitler gets mentioned in Dune Messiah.
     
  5. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Genghis Khan too. Indeed that whole scene with Stilgar & Korba probably gives us the clearest picture of where Earth (or rather the concept of Earth) sits in the Dune Universe; said historical period being referred to as "The Golden Age of Earth" indicates in rather less than golden by 10,209AG, and at least in Stilgar's mind (who says he can name every planet his people set foot on in the wandering) these are "myths from the dawn of time". For context Paul mentions that those mere handful of shigawire reels are all that the Butlarian Jihad left them with in terms of Earth history. Presumably most of it was destroyed along with the machines and computer systems that held them, with only a fraction of a sliver being preserved and transcribed to something analogue.
    And yeah, the appendices make mention of "white sandy beaches and palm trees" on said neutral island in regards to the years long ecumenical conference, so Old Earth was at least still able to support life in the immediate aftermath of the Jihad.

    Subjective perhaps, but the later books referring to Earth as "no longer exists" or "gone" to me seems quite a bit more definite than just being lost to obscurity and/or depopulated (though that could well have happened first. I tend to assume that at some point in the fifteen or so millennia between the formation of the OCB and the return of the Lost Ones, Old Terra is literally destroyed somehow. Either through human deed or some natural disaster, it can no longer be said to be a planet any longer. Not even the dead husk of one. Given Stilgar's reaction at it's mention is akin to that of hearing someone speak of Eden, Atlantis, or Avalon, odds are whatever happened happened well before his time.

    While it's certainly possible some natural disaster could utterly obliterate Earth (massive CME, rogue primordial singularity or other large gravitational body entering the system) human hands, whether by negligence of deliberate misdeed seem far more likely given the timing.
     
  6. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Yep. It's why the "but... but... but... George Lucas/Gene Roddenberry" excuse doesn't work when applied to Dune.

    George Lucas had full control over Star Wars at the time that he altered the original trilogy, and while there were a lot more people involved in taking Star Trek from TOS to the movies and TNG, Roddenberry still had reasonable grounds to say that while TOS was what he and the production team, et. al had done in the '60s, he had a different vision for the '70s and '80s. After all, it was still his own creation he was altering.

    It's not the same with Dune. The original six novels were Frank Herbert's creation. Brian had nothing to do with it.

    Which Heinlein works are you thinking of? There are a lot of them that are hopelessly outdated now, given what we've learned about the solar system and astrophysics in general. It's a shame, but some of my favorite Heinlein juveniles haven't aged well at all. Even The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress seems dated since the breakup of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War.

    You realize that "great works" are considered great works because they've earned some measure of respect from the public, right?

    It doesn't help when a great work's legacy is actively undermined because of the inability of the legacy creator's son and his writing partner to understand what the work actually means and what's more, they don't care.

    Again, there's a difference between Gene Roddenberry deciding which version of Trek is his "true vision" on every second Tuesday and Brian Herbert retconning the basic foundation of his father's creation into something that doesn't make a lick of sense.

    So don't bear it. You have the right not to care about it. But how about not dismissing those of us who do care?

    If every cultural artifact was expected to stand on its own, the advertising industry would collapse thisfast and nobody would ever discuss the merits or failings of anything. None of us would be here and this forum would not exist because Star Trek and everything else we discuss here would "stand on its own."

    The events of Dune take place considerably more than 8000 years in the future. The year 10,191 A.G. means 10,191 years after the establishment of the Spacing Guild (A.G. = "After Guild"), which happened somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-11,000 years after our present (I could look this up more precisely if my books weren't still packed away after my move last fall).
     
  7. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Edit: Yup, it's the DE that had 25,000 years.

    The "Golden age of invention" (20th century) was 14,500 BG


    Edit again:. Keep in mind the DE is intentionally wrong in its timeline, in order to show the distortion of history across time. As an example, the DE timeline has Rome conquering the entire world (with China being the last hold out, but eventually falling to Rome).


    OP
    I believe it's about 20,000 - 25,000 years in our future. The exact difference is tricky because a standard year in Dune is less than a solar year on Earth. When I was younger 25,000 was the accepted difference, although that number seems to be growing less popular and people tend to say 20,000 - 23,000 more often now. I'd have to look it up but I suspect the difference is the DE vs the new books again.

    I remember Jeopardy had that as a question and used the wrong answer not too many years ago (they also confused AG with AD).
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  8. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    :wtf:

    Which article is this in? I've read most of the Encyclopedia, and don't remember anything like this.

    The only Rome-conquers-the-world stuff I remember reading is a Robert Silverberg book called Roma Eterna, which was published decades after the Dune Encyclopedia.
     
  9. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The timeline. At the very beginning of the DE.
     
  10. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "Aleksandr creates FIRST
    EMPIRE.
    ROMAN EMPIRE arises and
    16400- conquers the known world,
    16000 except for China, which
    resists until 14400. "

    Edit: And yes, by the dates here, Rome ruled the world well beyond present day. Basically, the DE timeline treats all of Earth history as being under the rule of the Roman Empire, with subsequent empires merely moving the capitol, and stuff like the cold war are merely inter provincial disputes. As I said, it's intentionally wrong.
     
  11. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    "Aleksandr" = Alexander the Great?

    Not that I have my copy of the Encyclopedia handy, but generally speaking "the known world" doesn't necessarily mean "the entire world."

    However, I will read the article when I find my Dune books (there's a downside to having several dozen boxes of books to unpack).
     
  12. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It literally says they conquered China and the USA. Human history from the formation of the Roman Empire to our settling of the solar system is one big long Roman Empire. Only with the destruction of Ceres, the capital of the empire after we colonize the solar system, does the Roman Empire fall.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's not meant as dismissal. I'm trying to understand how others define respect around an inanimate piece of work. Respect for people is something I grasp quite well. Respect for art is a whole other matter. I get admiration, awe, or acknowledgement of accomplishment. Perhaps I define respect too narrowly in this context.
    Ok...I think this misses my point but I will take this and simply take it as a point of learning.
    I guess I don't see it as being undermined.

    I'll leave this topic be. I clearly don't have the sense to see what is happening as you. :beer:.
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I guess one can take this one of two ways: either as you say, it's a distorted, inaccurate accounting of ancient history (about as accurate and complete as our knowledge of the pre-classical era), or there was some Neo Roman Empire founded by some guy called Aleksandr in the 21st/22nd/23rd-ish century (give or take) that really did conquer the globe (the first "true" Empire as the people of the Corrino Empire would rate it) and China really did hold out for a good 1600 years.

    Either works, and TBH I can't decide which explanation I like more. The former seems more in the spirit of the thing, but the latter has a certain ring of credibility to it too. Honestly I rather like the ambiguity, and it's not like it matters what's "true" or not. History has always been a semi-fictional version of events that people have agreed to go along with, and the "true history" is always changing from one century to the next.
     
  15. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Option 2 doesn't work.

    14,500 corresponds to the 20th century. The Roman Empire is founded 2,500 years earlier, and China is conquered 100 years prior to the 20th Century. They also have the seat of imperial control moving to Madrid due to the discovery of the Americas (corresponding to Spain's Empire gaining power with the discovery of the Americas, this is explicitly written) and then to London with the rise of the British Empire, and then Washington with the rise of the American Empire. It's clearly distorted history.

    Edit:. If you don't have your own copy of the DE, googling DE Chronographs or timeline will pull it up, it's been posted online a lot. It's really clear it's distorted history.
     
  16. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I couldn't find any images of the timeline itself, but I did skim through the Encyclopedia timeline on the Dune Wiki, and yeah it's definitely distorted history.
    Wow, I didn't realize it was that far in the future. It was clearly a lot farther out that things like Star Trek, or The Expanse, but I thought it was maybe 1K or 2K years from now.
     
  17. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or the dates are wrong/thrown off/confused by the non-terracentric year length re-calculation. Or the reckoning on when "Space Travel!" became a thing is off. Or is only counted from when Mars was actually settled, or the first manned ship left the system. Or perhaps the 22nd Century Neo Roman Empire gets confused with the Classical one because: the Butlarian Jihad burned down all the space libraries...etc.
    Like I said, it's ambiguous enough you can interpret it any way you like, and the fact that whichever version you pick may not have actually *happened* is kinda the point if you're going with a "history is an unreliable narrator" mindset.

    As a bit of a sidenote, I seem to vaguely recall Scytale having some insights into Old Terra. While it wouldn't be surprising that the Tleilaxu may have horded lost knowledge, it actually seemed like a first had recollection. Maybe the face dancers unlocked genetic memory and got away from their masters' control WAY earlier than they let on? Or just an artefact of Frank changing course from book to book?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  18. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You realize your theory would require Spain discovering America after the Roman Empire settled Mars, and then 500 years later inventing TV, Atomic energy, and rocketry, right? Did you look up the timeline? It's not ambiguous like you are theorizing. It starts with the founding of the first human settlements. It's just wrong, aka distorted. I am not going from memory, I have it open beside me.
     
  19. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  20. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Me too. Again, if we're going with "it's meant to be inaccurate" then it can be inaccurate in any number of ways. Some Imperial scholars may have abundant sources that say the atom was first split in the deserts of Mars by the Great Man Hatten, in the 9th century BC. Others may hotly contend that the claims the Old Terra is the birthplace of humanity is a sham concocted to fleece gullible pilgrims, and that multiple pre-Butlarian historical sources and religious texts both name the planet Eden, lost when Betelgeuse (eponym of Bela Tegeuse) went supernova in the third millennium BG, as the true cradle of humanity.

    If all the Dune Encyclopedia's timeline is supposed to be is "A" version of events, then if follows that (by design) it's not the definitive one, for such does not exist. I mean it's all fiction anyway, may as well have fun with it! ;)

    And just to be clear; I'm not claiming that any of this is "right", just illustrating the possibilities. I mean for all we know, they could have a poorly translated fragment of a transcript of a Flash Gordon serial episode and have taken it as a primary historical source. Emperor Ming of the Mongo Dynasty could have been a tiny footnote in Imperial textbooks for over 10,000 years and nobody was the wiser until Leto II came across it and laughed his tail off for two decades straight.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021