Dukat's Arc (toward the end)
- Thread starter Photon
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It would require some rewriting. In Covenant, when the right moment arrived he transported out immediately.
After Waltz I would've just killed him off. In my eyes his character arc and his role as a villain was finished.
Ziyal's death was just a plot device to conclude Dukat's downfall. The character herself served no real purpose. But with that said, I believe that it would have been better for him to have just been taken away and put in a Federation funny farm, and his arc would be done. A contrived escape, then becoming a space Jim Jones, then turning Bajoran to seduce Winn was just over the top.
Kira could have arranged it when DS9 was occupied by the Dominion. She's supposed to meet Dukat in her full dress uniform every time he comes to the station. So, have a runabout ready and a signalled beaming device, shoot Dukat when he gets off the shuttle, and then beam to the runabout and be out of range at warp before anyone could react.
He still had some great moments even after the death of his daughter and the events in "Waltz".
Despite som flaws at the end, he's still the best villain in Star Trek in my opinion.
Which Quark could have sold and made a fortune of.
Each disc accompanied by a certificate of authenticity!
IMO they should have ditched the paw wraiths plotline (and jesus dukat) completely. Dukat banging Winn was the worst sex scene in TV history.
I think Sisko's death would have been much better had he died beaming his crew off the Defiant just before it was destroyed, and then reappeared in his Prophet vision.
I think Sisko's death would have been much better had he died beaming his crew off the Defiant just before it was destroyed, and then reappeared in his Prophet vision.
I agree, the adversary should've been a changeling impersonating Jake.
Killing Dukat off would've been a decent way of salvaging what was left of that character; being a lap dog to the boring Dominion was beneath him. Dukat should've been responsible for the illness for the changlings not Section: Mission Impossible; it would be so him to kid he was responsible for that disease and in reality HE IS. Boasting is one of Dukat's best skill and rubbing enemies noses in it is what Cardassians do. Being a renegade or a lapdog just wasn't him and this all loving crap for a half-breed who happened to be his daughter should've been more. He should've been embarrassed he ever allowed her to live, and should've been plotting her demise while Kira prevents it throughout that dumb Cardassian/Changling union. What ever happened to Dukat's seven sons which were briefly revealed with Sisko in "The Maquis"??? There were things to explore before the great super villains who drowned all of the layered of intrigue in the Bajorran system, but with the Dominion getting all of the attention desperately making them the NEW BORG this left the Cardassians irrelevant.
Dukat became irrelevant and he was stripped from the things that made him and his species so interesting which were his facets, along with that ding-a-ling DAMAR every turn they made were typical lack of interest traits. Dukat was toothless making an ass out of himself for Kira, a woman who ONCE feared and hated his guts and now laughs at him while still hating his guts. By the time Sisko did that Tinkerbell wish for the Wormhole aliens to make his enemies disappear it was time for Dukat to go. He can't defeat bullsh*t magic??? Stuff the showrunners pulled out of their butts because they were creatively bankrupt. Once that "get out of jail free card" was drawn there was no way for Dukat to rebound from that. Just kill yourself.
I see your point but I don't agree in everything.
I think that Dukat could have continued to be the cunning, dangerous villain he was even after his daughter's death and without joining the Pah-Wraith cult or ending up with Kai Winn. He could have been that if he had stayed sane, went back to Cardassia, maybe killed Damar and ended up on the same side as The Female Shapeshifter and Weyoun.
I wasn't that fond of Dukat being obsessed by the Pah-Wraith thing, trying to pretend being Bajoran and having this relationship with Winn. But he wasn't a total disater there either.
In fact, there were times when I really enjoyed Dukat and Winn as villains in the same way that I enjoyed Culluh and Seska as villains in Voyager.
And with my very twisted sense of humor, I actually enjoyed the episode "Covenant" when Dukat turns into a 24th century Jim Jones at Empok Nor. He's actually magnificent during the whole episode when he pretend to be oh so caring for his cult members and finally is revealed for what he is. The scene when the poor Bajoran discovers that "their" new born baby is half-Cardassian is.....well, I can't call it funny or hilarious, but quite telling when it comes to show what Dukat really is.
Not to mention the wonderful portrait that the artist was painting, the one with Dukat in the center of the painting as som sort od divine person or savior. I wold love to have it on the wall of my living room!
Yeah, to show what Dukat really was made him predictable. The stereotypical villain where I can predict every stupid move they do. You know, Cardassian 2.0 of boredom like Damar and Seska and Dr. Crell Moset on Voyager; they're Cardassians by name only and Dukat ceremoniously join those bunch of Saturday morning cartoon villains. I never thought Odo's mother or leader of the Changlings was as remotely interesting as Dukat in his prime. Weyoun was fun but there wasn't an edge like I saw in the Cardassians in the 1st 3 seasons of the series. As for the painting, where Dukat was that goofy charlatan for the "comic book" style, evil version of the Wormhole aliens, cemented how low the character had gone. The painting was good enough to either get a good laugh at the character I once loved as a character piece or piss on it. How can Dukat be cunning and dangerous while being predictable? Maybe Photon has the answer? I would love to read his insight for this thread he posted.
Well, whatever minor details we might disagree on, I still think that we can agree on the fact that Dukat is the best villain in Star Trek and that the Cardassians were the best villains until The Dominion took control over them.
And even if you disagree with me in this aspect, I still would love to have that Dukat painting on the wall in my living room.
I guess that i'll have to start with some serious Photoshop work to fulfil that wish.
As for Seska, I still think she was a great villain, not as much as a Cardassian but as Voyager's nemesis. She and Culluh were a lovely couple.
Speaking of Cardassians, I really enjoyed "Duet". Harris Yulin is brilliant in that episode.
Agreed, I loved "Duet" one of my favorite episodes of DS9. Nana Visitor really sink her teeth in that episode; we saw her in one act she dismissed Yullin's claims presented herself she was beyond her fears of Cardassians and really attempted to show a Starfleet method of conversation. Like a captured tiger, this Cardassian showed his verbal prowess breaking Kira down, attempting to piss her off. As she continue to express her and her people's past of the occupation and make some sort of amend that both sides did horrible things, Yullin immediately goes into another level which Kira showed fear, sorrow, and extreme hatred. By the final act she reverts to that person she thought she left behind and is convinced she's looking at Gul Darhe'el "The Butcher of Gallitep" until... he wasn't.
Kira learns how 3 dimensional Cardassians are and realizes that species are not all monsters. Best villains, Lynx, you are correct, I was blown away of the context the showrunners at the time, Michael Pillar and Rick Berman, laid out for me as a viewer. The Cardassians were nothing I'd ever seen before on television, these guys were bastards! Very clever, and Dukat and Garak were the crown jewels of the bunch, how brain damage can it be where there were episodes where I sided with Dukat??? Garak??? In every definition THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS, and like Tony Soprano after them I learned we can be curious to venture those murky waters even though it could harm. Such as Space... The Final frontier... Deep Space Nine in the first 3 seasons made me an explorer, it was the cardinal definition of how Sisko explain to the Wormhole aliens of who we were and what we were about. All of that lost during seasons 4 thru 7. What could that series had been without the Gamma Quadrant versions of Klingons JEM HADAR (BORING), and Odo's people... who apparently looked like Odo*???
Seska, I struggled with her purpose when the showrunners had no interest in making Chakotay an important character but instead made him a schmo to be superseded by the ever incomparable Captain Janeway: THE G.O.A.T. of Captains. Not forgetting Voyager was her 1st command BTW.
I didn't believe one second she, Seska, was not the person who was giving tech to those aliens who can't find H2O. I knew she would ramble cartoon villain talk and escape. There was nothing Cardassian about her besides the make-up later on. The baby concept was weak at it's core, and concepts were pretty weak on that show which was a major disappointment for me, and could only have one conclusion just showed how unimportant she was. To me, that's 4th thru 7th season DS9 Cardassians and quite frankly missed an opportunity to have a Cardassian on board the ship who is not evil or something lame. Her relationship with Cullah didn't make sense to me, I mean he likes beating up women, If I'm wrong about that please correct me, I figured their relationship would be more abusive... that joint alliance was a complete joke and wasn't going anywhere. Pretty much defined VOY in a nutshell.
I disagree with you on the painting, I'd rather you have one of those lavish portraits on Captain Picard's wall, and I agree Dukat was one of the greatest villain at a point, but... for many in this forum feels the 2nd half of his character was better because the boring, 1 dimensional, Dominion were awesome.
*Note: Odo presented that facial form because HE COULD NOT replicate the humanoid face accurately. These liquid monsters were better in replicating faces but chose to look like Odo??? Where's the dimensions in doing that after getting the likes of the Cardassians? What a step down in sophistication.
Kira learns how 3 dimensional Cardassians are and realizes that species are not all monsters. Best villains, Lynx, you are correct, I was blown away of the context the showrunners at the time, Michael Pillar and Rick Berman, laid out for me as a viewer. The Cardassians were nothing I'd ever seen before on television, these guys were bastards! Very clever, and Dukat and Garak were the crown jewels of the bunch, how brain damage can it be where there were episodes where I sided with Dukat??? Garak??? In every definition THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS, and like Tony Soprano after them I learned we can be curious to venture those murky waters even though it could harm. Such as Space... The Final frontier... Deep Space Nine in the first 3 seasons made me an explorer, it was the cardinal definition of how Sisko explain to the Wormhole aliens of who we were and what we were about. All of that lost during seasons 4 thru 7. What could that series had been without the Gamma Quadrant versions of Klingons JEM HADAR (BORING), and Odo's people... who apparently looked like Odo*???
Seska, I struggled with her purpose when the showrunners had no interest in making Chakotay an important character but instead made him a schmo to be superseded by the ever incomparable Captain Janeway: THE G.O.A.T. of Captains. Not forgetting Voyager was her 1st command BTW.
I didn't believe one second she, Seska, was not the person who was giving tech to those aliens who can't find H2O. I knew she would ramble cartoon villain talk and escape. There was nothing Cardassian about her besides the make-up later on. The baby concept was weak at it's core, and concepts were pretty weak on that show which was a major disappointment for me, and could only have one conclusion just showed how unimportant she was. To me, that's 4th thru 7th season DS9 Cardassians and quite frankly missed an opportunity to have a Cardassian on board the ship who is not evil or something lame. Her relationship with Cullah didn't make sense to me, I mean he likes beating up women, If I'm wrong about that please correct me, I figured their relationship would be more abusive... that joint alliance was a complete joke and wasn't going anywhere. Pretty much defined VOY in a nutshell.I disagree with you on the painting, I'd rather you have one of those lavish portraits on Captain Picard's wall, and I agree Dukat was one of the greatest villain at a point, but... for many in this forum feels the 2nd half of his character was better because the boring, 1 dimensional, Dominion were awesome.
*Note: Odo presented that facial form because HE COULD NOT replicate the humanoid face accurately. These liquid monsters were better in replicating faces but chose to look like Odo??? Where's the dimensions in doing that after getting the likes of the Cardassians? What a step down in sophistication.
Agreed, I loved "Duet" one of my favorite episodes of DS9. Nana Visitor really sink her teeth in that episode; we saw her in one act she dismissed Yullin's claims presented herself she was beyond her fears of Cardassians and really attempted to show a Starfleet method of conversation. Like a captured tiger, this Cardassian showed his verbal prowess breaking Kira down, attempting to piss her off. As she continue to express her and her people's past of the occupation and make some sort of amend that both sides did horrible things, Yullin immediately goes into another level which Kira showed fear, sorrow, and extreme hatred. By the final act she reverts to that person she thought she left behind and is convinced she's looking at Gul Darhe'el "The Butcher of Gallitep" until... he wasn't.
Kira learns how 3 dimensional Cardassians are and realizes that species are not all monsters. Best villains, Lynx, you are correct, I was blown away of the context the showrunners at the time, Michael Pillar and Rick Berman, laid out for me as a viewer. The Cardassians were nothing I'd ever seen before on television, these guys were bastards! Very clever, and Dukat and Garak were the crown jewels of the bunch, how brain damage can it be where there were episodes where I sided with Dukat??? Garak??? In every definition THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS, and like Tony Soprano after them I learned we can be curious to venture those murky waters even though it could harm. Such as Space... The Final frontier... Deep Space Nine in the first 3 seasons made me an explorer, it was the cardinal definition of how Sisko explain to the Wormhole aliens of who we were and what we were about. All of that lost during seasons 4 thru 7. What could that series had been without the Gamma Quadrant versions of Klingons JEM HADAR (BORING), and Odo's people... who apparently looked like Odo*???
Seska, I struggled with her purpose when the showrunners had no interest in making Chakotay an important character but instead made him a schmo to be superseded by the ever incomparable Captain Janeway: THE G.O.A.T. of Captains. Not forgetting Voyager was her 1st command BTW.
I disagree with you on the painting, I'd rather you have one of those lavish portraits on Captain Picard's wall, and I agree Dukat was one of the greatest villain at a point, but... for many in this forum feels the 2nd half of his character was better because the boring, 1 dimensional, Dominion were awesome.
*Note: Odo presented that facial form because HE COULD NOT replicate the humanoid face accurately. These liquid monsters were better in replicating faces but chose to look like Odo??? Where's the dimensions in doing that after getting the likes of the Cardassians? What a step down in sophistication.
I should have mentioned Nana Visitor in my previous post. It takes two to make a good Duet and Visitor was brilliant too in this very interesting and thoughtful episode.
As for seasons 4-7, i must admit that even if the series took an unexpected turn there, it was still interesting and exciting. "Odo's people" were far from being such exciting villains as the Cardassians were but they were more scary and convincing than The Borg. I must admit that I really hated the Female Shapeshifter for all that she was, downright evil and planning genocide and slavery. I actually wished that she would be killed off during the end of the series and I was a bit disappointed that she wasn't. In that aspect I must consider her a great villain to stir up those emotions in me, even if she was rather one-dimensional compared to Dukat and other Cardassians.
I also have a certain fascination for Weyoun who I both loathed and found quite entertaining at the same time. It's a kind of villains i often like. There was a Western series which was and still is very popular where I live called "The Macahans" where Harris Yulin played a villain who was so slimy, cunning and downright disgusting that he was almost funny. I have a soft spot for such villains. Dukat came close to that on some occasions too.
As for Seska, I think that tou underestimate her. She was actually rather smart. She realized that Voyager would have problems with the Kazon and therefore gave them Federation technology so that they would back up Voyager and maybe help her to take over the ship in the long run. When that failed, she joined the kazon-Nistrim and tried to use them to get control over Voyager which actually succeeded in the two-part episode Basics. She used her Cardassian wit to manipulate Culluh for her own purpose which was to take control over Voyager and head straight to the Alpha Quadrant. I must admit that I find her and Culluh good villains.
I wasn't surprised when it turned out that Seska was the one who were giving technology to the Kazon-Nistrim. The other suspcet, Lt. Carey was too much Starfleet to be a villain. But I was a bit surprised when Seska left the ship and joined the Kazon-Nistrim.
Unfortunately, Voyager was plagued by bad and inconsistent writing which was a shame. The series had great characters and a great premise but had lousy and sloppy writers. Just imagine what could have happened if Voyager had had writers of DS9 quality.
The Kazon and the H2O thing was a typical writer error. My theory is that the Kazon-Ogla who were mining in the Ocampa system was under siege from other Kazon sects and therefore had problems to find water in that area, at least it is my attempt to explain such a ridiculous plot. As for Chakotay, he was a great character who should have been used better. He was sadly wasted by the "writers", no wonder why Robert Beltran was so annoyed with them.
As for my liking of the painting and Dukat becoming Jim Jones, well I guess it has something to do with my very twisted sense of humor.
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