DSC and the Star Trek philosophy

[Guy Gardener]

That's the President talking in DS9 Homefront about being elected President.

This is from DS9 Rapture.

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.

What does "chosen" mean?

My guess is that they are political appointees, like with the UN, which is what the federation is. A free-trade/mutual defense agreement.

1. There are multiple Council members per planet, but then it could be a time share situation. 5 people who can sit in the member world seat and vote, or argue, depending on sleeping patterns, work schedules and holidays.

2. The President of the council has to be elected. Is the pool of potential presidents taken from the current standing Federation Councillors?

3. Member worlds have to be democratic (TNG Attached, and DS9 Accession) and if they disagree with the Federation, they can secede no problemo (Turkana IV? Although, what about he Maquis?)

 

[Noname Given]

There are lots of issues with the moral subtext of the first season which make it...for lack of a better way to describe it...problematic.

1. As was noted, the show brings up rape and PTSD, but has nothing intelligent to say about it. Earlier Trek would have at least worked in a B-plot in an episode somewhere which allowed us to feel out the issues.
2. I had a major issue with how the show felt the need to destroy the credibility of the Federation as a whole (along with Sarek and Cornwell) in order to paint Burnham as the hero. Typically when there are betryals of Federation values, it's portrayed as an "insane admiral" or something acting outside of the chain of command. There have been rare cases in the past where Starfleet has either looked the other way while a rogue agency attempted Genocide (Section 31 and the Founders) or actively considered it (against the Borg). But the difference in those cases are the plans offered were not only last-ditch, they were also smart. The plan as presented is "we blow up Kronos, and maybe the armada retreats." Klingon psychology suggests they're just as likely to be enraged and wipe Earth off the map. The plan wasn't just evil, it was STUPID, which is why I'm really unforgiving regarding their choices in the last two episodes.
3. The "we are Starfleet" speech was all well and good. But the more "ethical" solution that Burnham figured out was to install a friendly dictator who only kept power due to having a finger on a killswitch - threatening her entire planet with destruction if they didn't do as she asked. That's hardly the "Starfleet way" - it's acting like the CIA in the 20th century.

Woul;d erlier Trek have worked up a B-Plot? I ask because Rape is clearly shown in TOS - "The Enemy Within" with the scene between 'evil' Kirk and Janice Rand in her quarters, and Sock's only commentary and the end of the episode is:

RAND: Captain? The impostor told me what happened, who he really was, and I'd just like to say that. Well, sir, what I'd like is

KIRK: Thank you, Yeoman.

SPOCK: The, er, impostor had some interesting qualities, wouldn't you say, Yeoman?

So, yeah, while Star trek has always tried to sow, a better, more positive future; it still is a product of its time.

Edited to Add:
And if you think, "Well, that's 50+ year old Star Trek - lets not forget TNG's "The Outcast" which tried to deal with Homosexuality and Transgender issue, but it's message in the end was:

"Hey! With the proper medication and therapy - homosexuality can be CURED!"

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sorrin should have shown up for Riker's Weddings, to get her man back, because the brain washing finally lapsed.

 

[Nyotarules]

"Hey! With the proper medication and therapy - homosexuality can be CURED!"

It was Sorin's heterosexual/binary tendencies that were cured. The nongendered being was not a homosexual.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes they were.

There was only one sex, and that one sex liked to bang.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It was Sorin's heterosexual/binary tendencies that were cured. The nongendered being was not a homosexual.

It was a metaphor about people who don't conform to what society considered normal. And the non-conformist ended up being literally cured of their 'unnatural' sexual urges.

 

[Phoenix219]

Yes they were.

There was only one sex, and that one sex liked to bang.

Moclus?

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Perhaps some fans have translated the TOS Star Trek where humanity have overcome their Earth based prejudicial differences (political, sexual, religous, race etc) to mean humans are perfect with each other and perfect with the rest of the universe!

More like piggybacking off of 1987 Gene Roddenberry's desire to do this to his Starfleet characters. The "Gene's Vision!!!" people.

 

[eschaton]

Woul;d erlier Trek have worked up a B-Plot? I ask because Rape is clearly shown in TOS - "The Enemy Within" with the scene between 'evil' Kirk and Janice Rand in her quarters, and Sock's only commentary and the end of the episode is:

PTSD has absolutely been done in Trek, not just as a B-plot, but an A-plot. It's Only a Paper Moon is one of my favorite Trek episodes - and showcases how strong DS9 was with secondary characters, considering the entire episode was centered around Nog and Vic Fontaine - neither of which were part of the main cast.

As far as rape goes, it's true that Trek has generally not discussed it. There were better examples than what you gave though. The depiction of rape in The Return of the Archons was pretty goddamned negative. Also, rape was explicitly made part of Tasha Yar's backstory.

Rape has been dealt with in an allegorical manner by Star Trek numerous times though. Things like Troi's many telepathic violations, T'Pol's forced mind-meld, or even Picard's assimilation are pretty clearly meant to be violations akin to rape.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Edited to Add:
And if you think, "Well, that's 50+ year old Star Trek - lets not forget TNG's "The Outcast" which tried to deal with Homosexuality and Transgender issue, but it's message in the end was:

"Hey! With the proper medication and therapy - homosexuality can be CURED!"

That's not what I took away from it. The episode goes to great lengths to humanise Soren and make her someone you can care about. The villains are clearly the ones who want people like Soren to not exist. Riker thinks what has happened to Soren is wrong as does Worf of all people and even Picard subtly hints with his 'any other business in this system' line to Riker, that he'd be willing to make a fight of it if his XO asked. Ultimately Riker is powerless to do anything about it because of the prime directive and starfleet regulations. The Prime directive is literally allowing a form of tyranny and I think the true failure of the episode was not exploring how the Prime directive and federation ideals can be morally dubious and have a negative impact on innocent people.

 

[Nyotarules]

The Prime directive is literally allowing a form of tyranny and I think the true failure of the episode was not exploring how the Prime directive and federation ideals can be morally dubious and have a negative impact on innocent people.

The Prime Directive has to be morally dubious since its not Starfleet's or the UFP's place to police the galaxy. Its a good reason why the peace deal with the Klingon empire works and why the UFP works, its not Earth's job to create other speices in their enlightened image by force.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The Prime Directive has to be morally dubious since its not Starfleet's or the UFP's place to police the galaxy. Its a good reason why the peace deal with the Klingon empire works and why the UFP works, its not Earth's job to create other spieces in their enlightened image by force.

Yeah I know. I'm saying there was a missed opportunity to show a Starfleet officer being human for once and feeling disillusioned about the prime directive preventing him from saving a friend.

 

[eschaton]

IMHO I kind of liked the Prime Directive as it was shown in TNG, in large part because it was the only area where Federation morality was fundamentally somewhat alien to late 20th century Western norms.

I mean, over the course of a human lifetime, we have seen certain things (like premarital sexual relations) go from scandalous to widespread, and others (like smoking in public) go from unremarkable to frowned upon. Federation - even human - morality should be starkly different from our own given 400 years of cultural evolution.

 

[Noname Given]

That's not what I took away from it. The episode goes to great lengths to humanise Soren and make her someone you can care about. The villains are clearly the ones who want people like Soren to not exist. Riker thinks what has happened to Soren is wrong as does Worf of all people and even Picard subtly hints with his 'any other business in this system' line to Riker, that he'd be willing to make a fight of it if his XO asked. Ultimately Riker is powerless to do anything about it because of the prime directive and starfleet regulations. The Prime directive is literally allowing a form of tyranny and I think the true failure of the episode was not exploring how the Prime directive and federation ideals can be morally dubious and have a negative impact on innocent people.

But Soren herself tells Riker she's fixed/cured - and it was a sickness. So, yeah, sorry, but the message that sends is "Hey, things like this can be fixed with the proper medical/psychological treatment.

 

[cultcross]

But Soren herself tells Riker she's fixed/cured - and it was a sickness

I would say the episode makes it clear that was a terrible thing for her people to do; you'd be hard pressed to take away the message that it was pro "gay cures". She's been brainwashed as a sentence for the "crime" of identifying as female, and the episode doesn't present that in a good light at all. I'm genuinely surprised you could read it as pro "homosexuality cure".

The episode is clunky and self conscious as all hell but it did give us an interesting Sci-fi flip of an idea - that gender non conforming is the norm and it is the person who expressed a fixed gender identity who was considered an outcast, mocked and shunned. It's just a shame they tried to make that about being gay, when the core relationship in the story was a heterosexual one.

 

[Noname Given]

I would say the episode makes it clear that was a terrible thing for her people to do; you'd be hard pressed to take away the message that it was pro "gay cures". She's been brainwashed as a sentence for the "crime" of identifying as female, and the episode doesn't present that in a good light at all. I'm genuinely surprised you could read it as pro "homosexuality cure".

The episode is clunky and self conscious as all hell but it did give us an interesting Sci-fi flip of an idea - that gender non conforming is the norm and it is the person who expressed a fixed gender identity who was considered an outcast, mocked and shunned. It's just a shame they tried to make that about being gay, when the core relationship in the story was a heterosexual one.

IDK - Picard hypocritically dressed down Worf practically anytime Worf did something that was 100% okay in Klingon culture; but went against Human/Federation norms; yet here Picard is just toeing the standard Federation line:
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/217.htm

RIKER: Sir, their minds are set. They don't want to hear another alternative.
PICARD: Then I'm not sure that there's much that we can do.
RIKER: There has to be. My relationship with Soren is not trivial. She's very important to me. It's my fault that this happened. I have to help her.
PICARD: Will, if you've come here for sanction to take matters into your own hands, I can't give it to you.
RIKER: I know that, but I have to do something.
PICARD: Interfering in the internal matters of the J'naii is prohibited by the Prime Directive.
RIKER: I'm aware of that.
PICARD: If you violate it, you may jeopardizing your career. Starfleet doesn't take these matters lightly, Will. I can't defend you if you go too far. Do you understand that?
RIKER: You've made yourself very clear, sir.
PICARD: Don't risk everything you've worked for.
RIKER: Thank you. May I be excused now?

Worf (big surspise) decides to go with Riker to help and the following occurs:

RIKER: Something's happening. They're leaving.
(Worf and Riker make their way through the plants to the edge of the courtyard, and watch people leaving)
RIKER: Okay. (he steps out) Excuse me. I need to speak to her alone for a moment.
(Worf and Riker scuffle with Soren's guards, then Riker drags her off into the bushes)
SOREN: Wait.
RIKER: Don't worry. We'll be out of here in a minute.
SOREN: Please. don't.
RIKER: All right, we're almost there.
SOREN: You cannot do this.
RIKER: I won't let them hurt you. You'll be safe on the Enterprise.
SOREN: I am so sorry. It was my fault that you got involved in all this.
RIKER: Everything's going to be all right. Everything's going to be fine.
SOREN: No, it is not.
RIKER: What are you talking about?
SOREN: It was all a mistake, and I should have realized it from the beginning.
RIKER: What?
SOREN: That I was sick. I had these terrible urges, and that is why I reached out to you. But it was wrong, and I see that now. I do not understand how I could have done what I did.
RIKER: Maybe Doctor Crusher can treat you and bring you back to the way you were.
SOREN: Why would I want that?
RIKER: Soren. I love you.
SOREN: I'm sorry.

And AFTER all the above, the episode ends with:

PICARD: How long to the Phelan system, Mister Data?
(Riker enters, Worf is already at his post)
DATA: At warp six, fifty three hours, sir.
PICARD: Commander?
RIKER: Captain.
PICARD: Starfleet has sent a message asking us to proceed to the Phelan system to negotiate a trade agreement.
RIKER: Yes, sir.
PICARD: I didn't know when to tell them we will be there. Is our business with the J'naii finished?
RIKER: Finished, sir.
PICARD: Very well. Ensign, take us out of orbit. Set a course for the Phelan system, warp six.
ENSIGN: Aye, sir.
PICARD: Engage.

Now granted, Picard at least DIDN'T go off on Riker or Worf after the fact; but I FAIL to see where anyone on the 1701-D was really criticizing or even questioning this aspect of J'naii society. In other TNG episodes Picard usually had ZERO ISSUES pontificating to a government official of an alien world as to how 'less evolved' something might be in comparison to how it is in Federation (read: Human) society; yet here all Picard really does is half-heartly say "Well, mayber I can talk to trhem again..." followed by a warning to William Riker to basically not get involved and to not jeopardize his career.

And after re-read Soren's final exchange with Riker - sorry, I don't see who you can come away NOT thinking - "Hey, homosexuality is CURABLE - and they will thank us for doing it too..." (It's honestly worse then I remembered it - and while I'm not Homosexual -I still feel it's a horrible message to send - and I think I know know how some more 'Conservative' leaning folks became fans of TNG; and are wondering why all the current 'new' Star Trek seems to have a much more 'Liberal/Left' philosophy in their eyes when I see stuff like the above in a TNG episode.

In the end all Picard basiclly has to say is:
"Are we done here?"
to which Riker says:
"Yes."
And they fly off to the next Planet of the Week with nothing more to say.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

But Soren herself tells Riker she's fixed/cured - and it was a sickness. So, yeah, sorry, but the message that sends is "Hey, things like this can be fixed with the proper medical/psychological treatment.

Soren had her brain scrambled into thinking this way. Riker certainly doesn't think that what happened to Soren is a good thing, I mean he and Worf launched an unsanctioned rescue mission to save her. No one except the people who brainwashed Soren thought it was a good thing. Riker's guilt at the end of the episode over not being able to do anything to help Soren is palpable.

It's by no means a perfect episode and I think they should have made Soren identify as male. But as a gay man myself, I just don't see the same message you do.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Prime Directive has to be morally dubious since its not Starfleet's or the UFP's place to police the galaxy. Its a good reason why the peace deal with the Klingon empire works and why the UFP works, its not Earth's job to create other spieces in their enlightened image by force.

Levels.

General Order One is a Starfleet Regulation to make sure that one asshole Captain does not drag the entire Federation to it's knees.

Is there a similar rule to stop the Federation Council if there's a majority of assholes after an "election" dragging the 150 member worlds of the Federation, and Starfleet to it's Knees?

Is there a similar rule to stop one asshole Member World dragging the Federation, the Council and Starfleet to their knees?

 

[Nyotarules]

Yeah I know. I'm saying there was a missed opportunity to show a Starfleet officer being human for once and feeling disillusioned about the prime directive preventing him from saving a friend.

If you accept humans can screw up sometimes, then Picard was being very human

 

[Steve Roby]

One straight guy’s perspective, fwiw... A significant problem with “Outcast” is Berman’s inability to see gay people as people rather than a political issue. People said, we’d like to see gay characters, but he could only translate that as, we should do a story about the “issue” of homosexuality. (People involved with the show have said that Roddenberry and, later, Berman were very uncomfortable with the subject, despite realizing on some level that if they were going to keep bragging about Star Trek’s anti-racist and anti-sexist values, this was something they should be dealing with in 1980s Star Trek. They wanted to keep getting credit for Star Trek being seen as socially advanced and ahead of the curve without necessarily putting in the work.)

Compare and contrast that episode to Culber and Stamets on Discovery. The producers and writers didn’t do a Very Special Episode About The Gay People And The Challenge They Present To Modern Society, they just have characters who are gay. It’s classic Star Trek values, but they’re showing, not telling.