DSC and the Star Trek philosophy

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Sarxus, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's the President talking in DS9 Homefront about being elected President.

    This is from DS9 Rapture.

    What does "chosen" mean?

    My guess is that they are political appointees, like with the UN, which is what the federation is. A free-trade/mutual defense agreement.

    1. There are multiple Council members per planet, but then it could be a time share situation. 5 people who can sit in the member world seat and vote, or argue, depending on sleeping patterns, work schedules and holidays.

    2. The President of the council has to be elected. Is the pool of potential presidents taken from the current standing Federation Councillors?

    3. Member worlds have to be democratic (TNG Attached, and DS9 Accession) and if they disagree with the Federation, they can secede no problemo (Turkana IV? Although, what about he Maquis?)
     
  2. Noname Given

    Noname Given Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Woul;d erlier Trek have worked up a B-Plot? I ask because Rape is clearly shown in TOS - "The Enemy Within" with the scene between 'evil' Kirk and Janice Rand in her quarters, and Sock's only commentary and the end of the episode is:

    So, yeah, while Star trek has always tried to sow, a better, more positive future; it still is a product of its time.

    Edited to Add:
    And if you think, "Well, that's 50+ year old Star Trek - lets not forget TNG's "The Outcast" which tried to deal with Homosexuality and Transgender issue, but it's message in the end was:

    "Hey! With the proper medication and therapy - homosexuality can be CURED!"
     
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  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sorrin should have shown up for Riker's Weddings, to get her man back, because the brain washing finally lapsed.
     
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  4. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    It was Sorin's heterosexual/binary tendencies that were cured. The nongendered being was not a homosexual.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes they were.

    There was only one sex, and that one sex liked to bang.
     
  6. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was a metaphor about people who don't conform to what society considered normal. And the non-conformist ended up being literally cured of their 'unnatural' sexual urges.
     
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  7. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

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    Moclus?
     
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  8. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Commodore Commodore

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    More like piggybacking off of 1987 Gene Roddenberry's desire to do this to his Starfleet characters. The "Gene's Vision!!!" people.
     
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  9. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    PTSD has absolutely been done in Trek, not just as a B-plot, but an A-plot. It's Only a Paper Moon is one of my favorite Trek episodes - and showcases how strong DS9 was with secondary characters, considering the entire episode was centered around Nog and Vic Fontaine - neither of which were part of the main cast.

    As far as rape goes, it's true that Trek has generally not discussed it. There were better examples than what you gave though. The depiction of rape in The Return of the Archons was pretty goddamned negative. Also, rape was explicitly made part of Tasha Yar's backstory.

    Rape has been dealt with in an allegorical manner by Star Trek numerous times though. Things like Troi's many telepathic violations, T'Pol's forced mind-meld, or even Picard's assimilation are pretty clearly meant to be violations akin to rape.
     
  10. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's not what I took away from it. The episode goes to great lengths to humanise Soren and make her someone you can care about. The villains are clearly the ones who want people like Soren to not exist. Riker thinks what has happened to Soren is wrong as does Worf of all people and even Picard subtly hints with his 'any other business in this system' line to Riker, that he'd be willing to make a fight of it if his XO asked. Ultimately Riker is powerless to do anything about it because of the prime directive and starfleet regulations. The Prime directive is literally allowing a form of tyranny and I think the true failure of the episode was not exploring how the Prime directive and federation ideals can be morally dubious and have a negative impact on innocent people.
     
  11. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    The Prime Directive has to be morally dubious since its not Starfleet's or the UFP's place to police the galaxy. Its a good reason why the peace deal with the Klingon empire works and why the UFP works, its not Earth's job to create other speices in their enlightened image by force.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  12. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah I know. I'm saying there was a missed opportunity to show a Starfleet officer being human for once and feeling disillusioned about the prime directive preventing him from saving a friend.
     
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  13. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    IMHO I kind of liked the Prime Directive as it was shown in TNG, in large part because it was the only area where Federation morality was fundamentally somewhat alien to late 20th century Western norms.

    I mean, over the course of a human lifetime, we have seen certain things (like premarital sexual relations) go from scandalous to widespread, and others (like smoking in public) go from unremarkable to frowned upon. Federation - even human - morality should be starkly different from our own given 400 years of cultural evolution.
     
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  14. Noname Given

    Noname Given Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But Soren herself tells Riker she's fixed/cured - and it was a sickness. So, yeah, sorry, but the message that sends is "Hey, things like this can be fixed with the proper medical/psychological treatment.
     
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  15. cultcross

    cultcross Postponed for the snooker Moderator

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    I would say the episode makes it clear that was a terrible thing for her people to do; you'd be hard pressed to take away the message that it was pro "gay cures". She's been brainwashed as a sentence for the "crime" of identifying as female, and the episode doesn't present that in a good light at all. I'm genuinely surprised you could read it as pro "homosexuality cure".

    The episode is clunky and self conscious as all hell but it did give us an interesting Sci-fi flip of an idea - that gender non conforming is the norm and it is the person who expressed a fixed gender identity who was considered an outcast, mocked and shunned. It's just a shame they tried to make that about being gay, when the core relationship in the story was a heterosexual one.
     
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  16. Noname Given

    Noname Given Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    IDK - Picard hypocritically dressed down Worf practically anytime Worf did something that was 100% okay in Klingon culture; but went against Human/Federation norms; yet here Picard is just toeing the standard Federation line:
    http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/217.htm

    Worf (big surspise) decides to go with Riker to help and the following occurs:
    And AFTER all the above, the episode ends with:
    Now granted, Picard at least DIDN'T go off on Riker or Worf after the fact; but I FAIL to see where anyone on the 1701-D was really criticizing or even questioning this aspect of J'naii society. In other TNG episodes Picard usually had ZERO ISSUES pontificating to a government official of an alien world as to how 'less evolved' something might be in comparison to how it is in Federation (read: Human) society; yet here all Picard really does is half-heartly say "Well, mayber I can talk to trhem again..." followed by a warning to William Riker to basically not get involved and to not jeopardize his career.

    And after re-read Soren's final exchange with Riker - sorry, I don't see who you can come away NOT thinking - "Hey, homosexuality is CURABLE - and they will thank us for doing it too..." (It's honestly worse then I remembered it - and while I'm not Homosexual -I still feel it's a horrible message to send - and I think I know know how some more 'Conservative' leaning folks became fans of TNG; and are wondering why all the current 'new' Star Trek seems to have a much more 'Liberal/Left' philosophy in their eyes when I see stuff like the above in a TNG episode.

    In the end all Picard basiclly has to say is:
    "Are we done here?"
    to which Riker says:
    "Yes."
    And they fly off to the next Planet of the Week with nothing more to say.
     
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  17. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Soren had her brain scrambled into thinking this way. Riker certainly doesn't think that what happened to Soren is a good thing, I mean he and Worf launched an unsanctioned rescue mission to save her. No one except the people who brainwashed Soren thought it was a good thing. Riker's guilt at the end of the episode over not being able to do anything to help Soren is palpable.

    It's by no means a perfect episode and I think they should have made Soren identify as male. But as a gay man myself, I just don't see the same message you do.
     
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  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Levels.

    General Order One is a Starfleet Regulation to make sure that one asshole Captain does not drag the entire Federation to it's knees.

    Is there a similar rule to stop the Federation Council if there's a majority of assholes after an "election" dragging the 150 member worlds of the Federation, and Starfleet to it's Knees?

    Is there a similar rule to stop one asshole Member World dragging the Federation, the Council and Starfleet to their knees?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  19. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    If you accept humans can screw up sometimes, then Picard was being very human
     
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  20. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    One straight guy’s perspective, fwiw... A significant problem with “Outcast” is Berman’s inability to see gay people as people rather than a political issue. People said, we’d like to see gay characters, but he could only translate that as, we should do a story about the “issue” of homosexuality. (People involved with the show have said that Roddenberry and, later, Berman were very uncomfortable with the subject, despite realizing on some level that if they were going to keep bragging about Star Trek’s anti-racist and anti-sexist values, this was something they should be dealing with in 1980s Star Trek. They wanted to keep getting credit for Star Trek being seen as socially advanced and ahead of the curve without necessarily putting in the work.)

    Compare and contrast that episode to Culber and Stamets on Discovery. The producers and writers didn’t do a Very Special Episode About The Gay People And The Challenge They Present To Modern Society, they just have characters who are gay. It’s classic Star Trek values, but they’re showing, not telling.
     
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