DSC and the Star Trek philosophy

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Sarxus, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    At the time, assumption was that Sorrin had a penis, that Riker enjoyed.

    But Sorrin probably had a cloaca, or a completely new forward facing alien genital.

    Spiders have multiple spinnerets, which could be how they make their husks they put their babies into, which Riker could have had sex with.
     
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  2. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure how we could possibly doubt that we see evidence of PTSD in Burnams' choices, character arc and portrayal?

    It pretty much defines her from the first episode.
     
  3. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    I have to admit I didn’t even bother reading most of your post, I saw the quote about glitter and just had to click the ol’ like button.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, indeed. Which is more compelling storytelling for my money. It's why I like Burnham and Spock and Pike and Sarek and Culber and Staments, among others. They feel very much like people and not issues.

    Or, maybe, people with issues ;)
     
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  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I'm rewatching Discovery, and certainty that everything is going to go wrong... It's almost like she time traveled back a few hours to save Georgou from a different destined death, and still cocked it up.
     
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  6. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

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    Wow, that could definitely put a different spin on season 1... she came back with the red Angel suit in a different iteration where Georgou died, took different actions on the bridge that day and still changed nothing, or made it worse.
     
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  7. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry for replying to myself, but it would add to the fact that she literally did nothing and was stopped before anything but her own path was changed.
     
  8. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In what scenes is Burnham "defined" by PTSD?
     
  9. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The ones in the show?
     
  10. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So, you can't really point to any scenes that confirm that Burnham (adult Burnham) has PTSD. It's fanon, like Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. There is no conclusive on screen evidence, people just assume it's true because it seems true.
     
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  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What about the sadness and the quietness when the Admirals are sentencing her?

    The PTSD vanishes very quickly, and it's more about Georgiou dying than shellshock.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Burnham demonstrates avoidant behaviors, and negative thoughts or believes about oneself or the world, as well as feeling isolated from other people, which are also symptoms of PTSD. PTSD actually has roughly 17 symptoms, and rarely presents identically in every case.
     
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  13. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You really want a serious answer, as a mental health professional? What level of "evidence" would you require?

    To me this isn't so much like saying "Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet" as saying "Reg Barclay has social anxiety" or "Porthos is a dog". It's right there on the screen and short of someone actually saying "So, Michael, about this formal diagnosis of PTSD you have" (which, incidentally, doesn't happen with Reg) I don't know what more would be required.

    Still, here are the DSM V diagnostic criteria for PTSD:

    A. Exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violence in one (or more) of the following ways:
    Directly experiencing the traumatic event(s).
    Witnessing, in person, the event(s) as it occurred to others.
    Learning that the traumatic event(s) occurred to a close family member or close friend. In cases of actual or threatened death of a family member or friend, the event(s) must have been violent or accidental.
    Experiencing repeated or extreme exposure to aversive details of the traumatic event(s) (e.g., first responders collecting human remains; police officers repeatedly exposed to details of child abuse). Note: Criterion A4 does not apply to exposure through electronic media, television, movies, or pictures, unless this exposure is work related.

    B. Presence of one (or more) of the following intrusion symptoms associated with the traumatic event(s), beginning after the traumatic event(s) occurred:
    Recurrent, involuntary, and intrusive distressing memories of the traumatic event(s). Note: In children older than 6 years, repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the traumatic event(s) are expressed.
    Recurrent distressing dreams in which the content and/or affect of the dream are related to the traumatic event(s). Note: In children, there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content.
    Dissociative reactions (e.g., flashbacks) in which the individual feels or acts as if the traumatic event(s) were recurring. (Such reactions may occur on a continuum, with the most extreme expression being a complete loss of awareness of present surroundings.) Note: In children, trauma-specific reenactment may occur in play.
    Intense or prolonged psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event(s).
    Marked physiological reactions to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event(s).

    C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the traumatic event(s), beginning after the traumatic event(s) occurred, as evidenced by one or both of the following:
    Avoidance of or efforts to avoid distressing memories, thoughts, or feelings about or closely associated with the traumatic event(s).
    Avoidance of or efforts to avoid external reminders (people, places, conversations, activities, objects, situations) that arouse distressing memories, thoughts, or feelings about or closely associated with the traumatic event(s).

    D. Negative alterations in cognitions and mood associated with the traumatic event(s), beginning or worsening after the traumatic event(s) occurred, as evidenced by two (or more) of the following:
    Inability to remember an important aspect of the traumatic event(s) (typically due to dissociative amnesia, and not to other factors such as head injury, alcohol, or drugs).
    Persistent and exaggerated negative beliefs or expectations about oneself, others, or the world (e.g., “I am bad,” “No one can be trusted,” “The world is completely dangerous,” “My whole nervous system is permanently ruined”).
    Persistent, distorted cognitions about the cause or consequences of the traumatic event(s) that lead the individual to blame himself/herself or others.
    Persistent negative emotional state (e.g., fear, horror, anger, guilt, or shame).
    Markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities.
    Feelings of detachment or estrangement from others.
    Persistent inability to experience positive emotions (e.g., inability to experience happiness, satisfaction, or loving feelings).

    E. Marked alterations in arousal and reactivity associated with the traumatic event(s), beginning or worsening after the traumatic event(s) occurred, as evidenced by two (or more) of the following:
    Irritable behavior and angry outbursts (with little or no provocation), typically expressed as verbal or physical aggression toward people or objects.
    Reckless or self-destructive behavior.
    Hypervigilance.
    Exaggerated startle response.
    Problems with concentration.
    Sleep disturbance (e.g., difficulty falling or staying asleep or restless sleep).

    F. Duration of the disturbance (Criteria B, C, D and E) is more than 1 month.

    G. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

    H. The disturbance is not attributable to the physiological effects of a substance (e.g., medication, alcohol) or another medical condition.

    Burnham meets at least one criteria in every category, as I'm sure you can see for yourself, in fact she does so in a way which presents as almost exaggerated, as though the above had been literally used as a character notes when writing her into the show. (I actually suspect it was)

    In reality few, if any, people actually present as stereotypically symptomatic as she does, as @fireproof78 has correctly pointed out. So no, no one actually uses the term PTSD onscreen. But then again I'm not sure why they would?
     
  14. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My general feeling regarding Burnham's PTSD is the first two episodes heavily, heavily telegraph it, with the implication that Michael has irrational levels of fear and/or hatred of Klingons dating back to childhood trauma which cause her to make the wrong decision on several occasions. Some of this may be put down to SMG's choices in acting however, since it's not so much evident from the lines themselves as it is in how she plays the role wound so tight as if on the verge of a panic attack.

    Then, the series drops the idea entirely, with Michael basically not freaking out at all when around Klingons in the future - to the point that when we get to Into the Forest it's Michael who comforts the PTSD-suffering Ash.

    Then finally, in the season finale, they seemingly bring it up again out of nowhere, with Michael bringing up her parents murder by Klingons, and concluding that hey, maybe she is a little biased against them.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I don't agree on this point. Again, PTSD is a cluster of symptoms, not just irrational thought choices. She avoids connections with the crew, she blames and punishes herself excessively for her choices, and is more than willing to put herself in harm's way.

    Her connection with Ash is far more about someone she could identify with, possibly because he was an outsider or had shared pain, is an indication of working through her PTSD, not its absence.
     
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  16. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

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    It's why i find Culber and Stamets to be the best couple ever on Trek. They're not a loner-solo and his imzadi. Their fate wasn't written in the stars. I mean yeah they are involved in incredibly important events that they help affect but in the end they are an actual realistic couple, having their ups and downs, still managing to make it work after all the outside stress and the trouble a relationship runs into over time. They're the only people in Trek history we've seen brush their teeth. I'm a huge fan of them.
     
  17. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No one says it on screen about Tyler either. No one had to, because his symptoms are clearly defined on screen. We even see Tyler more or less getting over his PTSD. Burnham is never shown to have those symptoms, nor is she shown getting over them, but then there was no reason to show her getting over a malady she does not have. What you write above sounds true, generally speaking, but this is apparently not what we were being told about Burnham by the writers.
    But you realize this is a fictional character being used by writers to tell a story. They weren't telling us, as part of the story, that Burnham had PTSD. That is the reason it wasn't shown on screen (the way Tyler's was).

    You can interpret, just like any of us, that Burnham had PTSD (or whatever you want to call it) or whatever, but if there is no definitive on screen proof of it, it's not there.

    BTW, if you'd like to point out specific scenes that illustrate and correspond to the specific symptoms in the DSM V, as previously stated, I'm willing to read it. If the symptoms are as frequent and as visible as you say they are, this should be easy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
  18. serabine

    serabine Commander Red Shirt

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    Did you miss the entire point of the replies you got, which was that PTSD has a lot of different symptoms which can manifest and combine differently with different people and that extreme reactions like Tyler's after seeing L'Rell during the infiltration mission are one possible form of it, but not the only one that exists? You're kinda invalidating the experiences of people who have PTSD that doesn't fall in the most extreme and visible (and therefore most often portrayed by Hollywood) form of it.
     
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  19. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure anything could convince you here. You are asking for a scene by scene breakdown of something which is blatantly there embedded in the character from day one. Hence my comment "the ones on screen" in answer to your question about which scenes.

    I wasn't being flippant.

    If you can't see how readily she fits the profile then it's hard to know what else I can actually give you since it's so painfully obvious, arguably overdone in fact. As pointed out before she has flashbacks, she is avoidant, she seeks to self harm and is ambivalent about personal risk in a way which goes beyond mere "heroics", her relationships are shaped by all of the above and the healthiest one she has is with another sufferer.

    She mistrusts others, behaves irrationally around key trigger stimuli and punishes those who reach out to her, especially those who might for another character be viewed as parental figures. Intimacy is characterised as an outlet for paranoia and latent aggression.

    She is a classic PTSD portrayal from top to bottom.
     
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  20. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    I disagree.. I think Burnham is a Narcissistic Sociopath.
    https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-the-narcissistic-sociopath-4587611
    [​IMG]