DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Sykonee]

Week 7: (Ending 10.15.09)
DS9 - The Visitor (Airdate 10.09.95)
VOY - Parturition (Airdate 10.09.95)
B5 - Divided Loyalties (Airdate 10.11.95)

Not much to get into here. The Visitor's been discussed endlessly in this forum, and still holds up. It seems like an odd follow-up to WotW (especially Worf suddenly being a part of the cast -what did he have to say at that podium anyway?), but remains a strong emotional outing. I have to say though, it's weird seeing Tony Todd in this role, having just recently watched Candyman over the Halloween season. Excellent actor, he be.

VOY? Ah, the ol' 'bitter rivals have to work together to survive' bit. Average episode overall, though I'm surprised that I found Neelix to be quite tolerable in the second-half. Considering I was dreading this to be yet another Jealous Neelix outing, it's quite refreshing to see him in a rather... useful role for a change. Still, Parturition ain't a touch on The Visitor.

So, B5 then. After the looooonnggg break, it returns with... um, a character going bye-bye. The set-up seemed promising, and Ivonava's outing as a telepath is startling, but Divided Loyalties lacks... something. I dunno. Talia being the sleeper agent just doesn't seem all that shocking. "The Psy-Corps member was a Psy-Corps spy all along? You don't say!" I suppose it goes to some lengths in shaking the show up (behind-the-scenes reasons notwithstanding) but I ain't feelin' it. You're gonna have to do something bolder than this to get our attention again, B5.

Thusly, DS9 stands tall for another week. VOY, apparently feeling fatigued, decides to sit out the next couple weeks as its sister show and B5 duke it out for the remainder of October. And trust us, folks, it looks to be quite a battle indeed.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Hippocratic Oath
B5 - The Long, Twilight Struggle

 

[Harvey]

Yeah, I'm not big on Divided Loyalties. Strazynski far too often treats the stations Psi Cop (be it Lyta or Talia) like cattle, herding her in whatever direction his narrative demands. Here Talia, the telepath who has been adjusted into a unique super-telepath, is effortlessly swapped out for another telepath who (you guessed it) has also been adjusted into being a super-telepath. I wonder if that character aspect will be needed down the line.

It's a shame they had the contract dispute with Pat Tallman after The Gathering, and had another bad situation with Andrea Winters during season two. Outside of the change in leads between seasons one and two, and Claudia Christian's dispute over season five, it's probably the behind the scenes issue that hurt the series the most.

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was rather lucky in that respect, only having to deal with one bit of behind the scenes nonsense with Dax in season six. It helps when you have more money and more episodes that can feature various members of the ensemble, no doubt.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 8: (Ending 10.22.95)
DS9 - Hippocratic Oath (Airdate 10.16.95)
B5 - The Long, Twilight Struggle (Airdate 10.18.95)

Well, no wonder VOY sat out this week. Who could compete with B5's episode, huh? This was the kind of season premier (technically, 'long layover return', but whatever) the show could have used. Does it raise the bar the same way WotW did though?

In some ways, most definitely. Much like the Chrysalis/Points Of Depature/Revelations tandem of a year before, Divided Loyalties and now tLTS seem to indicate B5 is making profound changes again, throwing out much of what we took for granted in the season prior, and pushing forward with new dilemmas. Where tLTS trumps them all, however, is the emotional gut punch from G'Kar and Londo's reactions to everything. Geez, but these two guys, especially G'Kar, have really been put through the wringer. Worf's material, tragic in its own right, frankly can't compare. The Draal stuff was an alright b-plot; seemed inevitable it would happen, so it's nice to see it out of the way.

And, although the Major Battle sequence in WotW was an overall better technical showcase and smash-bang action-fun, it lacked tLTS's tragic consequence (not to mention the pure shock-n-awe of Shadow ships in action). On the other hand, WotW felt bigger, mostly due to the bigger budget.

Man, it'd be hard to choose between WotW and tLTS. It's a good thing they aren't Versing each other this week.

So obviously, Hippocratic Oath can't compare to tLTS, but it's still a very solid outing from DS9. It easily trumps anything VOY's put out lately. Man, but VOY's starting to look really, really vanilla compared to DS9 and B5 now.

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - Indiscretion
B5 - Comes The Inquisitor

 

[Kegg]

Yeah, I'm not big on Divided Loyalties. Strazynski far too often treats the stations Psi Cop (be it Lyta or Talia) like cattle, herding her in whatever direction his narrative demands. Here Talia, the telepath who has been adjusted into a unique super-telepath, is effortlessly swapped out for another telepath who (you guessed it) has also been adjusted into being a super-telepath. I wonder if that character aspect will be needed down the line.

Very true. What particularly hurt it for me is, honestly, I just didn't care. Talia Winters was the most annoying regular castmember on B5 at the time, and I was simply glad to see her go. It'd be about as emotional as outing Neelix as a Kazon spy.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Divided Loyalties was a decent thriller type episode, for all its flaws, but it can't compete with The Visitor. It's not as perfect as some people say (it ends on a reset button and what's supposed to have happened to Melanie?), but it does pack one hell of an emotional punch. The scene with Sisko and Jake on the Defiant where Ben realises that Jake's thrown away all the great stuff in his life is almost unbearably sad.

The Long Twilight Struggle against Hippocratic Oath is probably one of the most interesting match-ups we're going to see. I think that both of these episodes are very strong candidates for best episode of their respective seasons. When I watched Hippocratic Oath on DVD, having not seen it for years, the description sounded pretty boring, but as it turned out I was blown away. This is a really dark, in some ways un-Star Treky episode and the conflict between Bashir and O'Brien is very powerful. I was especially impressed by Colm Meaney's acting chops here. To be honest, in some ways this feels more like a Season 5 episode and I mean that as a complement.

As for The Long Twilight Struggle, where to start? This is Babylon 5 at its best. The scene with Londo watching the bombardment is one of the most memorable moments in B5 and the G'Kar stuff is very moving. Katsulas did a wonderful job of portraying a proud, passionate and intelligent man for whom we feel sympathy despite his flaws, and to see him come to this place is extremely affecting. If I had to choose between this one and The Way of the Warrior, I'd pick The Long Twilight Struggle, because, although less visually impressive (and DS9 always had better production values than B5), it means more.

As for Hippocratic Oath, TLTS beats it, but only just.

 

[Seven of Five]

I always wondered what kind of perverse reason PTEN used to justify keeping over the final four episodes of whatever the previous season of B5 was. It kills the narrative flow that had developed up until that point in the season, as well as destroying the point of the cliffhanger ending of The Fall of Night. I'm glad I never had to watch it like that, and instead had the spoilt pleasure of watching DVDs.

I think on a graph of quality, Voyager's decline is inverse to the increase in quality of DS9 and B5.

Whilst VOY would finish flat bottom nearly every time out of the three for me, I still find a lot to enjoy in that series. I found it a decent companion to DS9 really; something a little lighter and fluffy.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I agree with Seven of Five on B5. Watching it on DVD it's very noticeable that the final five episodes are strong and you reach the end thinking "OK! Season 2 rocks!". I think it was originally aired like this in Britain, but for Americans things may have been a bit messed up.

I've just realised, and it would be remiss of me not to mention it, that Confessions and Lamentations marks the start of the long JMS-penned stretch that lasts through Seasons 3 and 4.

 

[Sykonee]

I think it was originally aired like this in Britain, but for Americans things may have been a bit messed up.

Actually, it appears the final S2 episodes initially aired in August in the UK. Not as big a gap as what the US had, but still an odd place to put the final episodes of a season.

Week 9: (Ending 10.29.95)
DS9 - Indiscretion (Airdate 10.23.95)
B5 - Comes The Inquisitor (Airdate 10.25.95)

Must be "Fancy Words Beginning With 'I'" week.

DS9 continues to shake its universe up. Dukat is suddenly put in the most sympathetic light ever. It's almost like he's... not, such a bad person? Who'd have ever thought! Oh, and Sisko's relationship with Kassidy takes a big step!

Delenn, meanwhile, gets tortured a bunch. Ah, but what an excellent way of doing so! Inquisitor is practically an extended JMS psychology monologue, but he excels at those, so it's all good. Then, having Wayne Alexander handle most of the dialog, plus another great directing effort from Mike Vejar (seriously, why can't this guy just direct everything on both shows? Oh, wait, he's yet to make his DS9/VOY contributions, heh), and you have quite the gripping hour of television, considering the basic premise is rather simple. Not to mention the G'Kar b-plot was good too, nicely establishing the sort of role he'll now play that he's no longer ambassador.

Neither are big Event Episodes, but B5 gets the edge here. Not that it's a knock on DS9's effort -it was good as well. However, while Indiscretion's a solid character outing, it lacks the same kind of discussion-inducing psycho-analysis Inquisitor has. Seldom have three simple words -"Who are you?"- taken on such a poignant meaning within a television show.

In any event, it looks like VOY is ready to return to this dance next week. It's... got a lot of catching up to do if it wants to keep pace with DS9 and B5 at this point.

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - Rejoined
VOY - Persistence Of Vision
B5 - The Fall Of Night

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Another tough contest. Indiscretion is really good and for me, Dukat became a lot more interesting from this episode onwards. I'm a sucker for Trek episodes about people stuck between two cultures and identities, so the introduction of Ziyal worked well for me.

Comes the Inquisitor, is, as you say, another example of Mike Vejar's great directing talents. It's also good, and unsettling, to get the glimpse at the Vorlons that Sebastian provides. The revelation of who Sebastian actually is, is on one level kind of crazy, but I rather enjoy the chutzpah of it. The best part though, is the scene with Vir and G'Kar in the lift, which is one of my favourite exchanges in B5. "How do you apologise to them?"

I guess B5 wins by a whisker.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 9: (Ending 11.05.95)
DS9 - Rejoined (Airdate 10.30.95)
VOY - Persistence Of Vision (Airdate 10.30.95)
B5 - The Fall Of Night (Airdate 11.01.95)

Daring to go where no show has gone before, it's DS9!

I can't help but remember what a buddy of mine said upon watching Rejoined when I loaned him the series. "Man, all the Dax episode are just bullshit romance stories. The lesbian kiss was cool though!" Well, for a "bullshit romance story", this was actually one of the better ones, in all of Trek. It was actually, dare I say, believable -it's about a reacquainted forbidden love rather than a first-time love, which instantly turns the story tragic in a way that is easier to relate to (sorry, TV, but not many people can buy the kind of insta-love you normally sell). Compare it to the abysmal attempt at a Dax-love story the year before (Merdian); just leaps and bounds better, on all accounts. Certainly helps when you have Echevarria doing the writing.

Oh, the lesbian kiss thing? Ah, B5 had 'suggestive' lesbianism just a few weeks prior (even though I never caught onto it until someone pointed it out; two women sleeping in the same bed when there's only one to share isn't that uncommon), so it's not really that shocking or new. But kudos for having the gumption to go all the way here, even though they didn't have to. I remember thinking, "No, they aren't, they won't, they can't, they... whoa! They did!"

Meanwhile, on VOY, my gal Kes saves the ship, which instantly makes this one of the best episodes in a while. Okay, so the rest of the episode had some early merit, with the mystery of what's happening to Janeway, but once everyone starts hallucinating and standing around catatonic, it just gets silly. Plus, Torres' fantasy is so out of leftfield, you'd think it was some kind of fanfic moment.

And B5 kicked ass for another week. Once the shit hits the fan (Narn cruiser discovered by the Centauri), it's just a roller-coaster of events. You go from highs to lows in rapid fashion. Just when you think things might end nicely with everyone feeling blessed by seeing Kosh, you end on a dour note, with events seemingly spiraling out of control. Great way to end a season. Nice that we only have to wait a week to see what happens next.

So B5 wins again. It's not that DS9's quality is in question here, but we've been dealing with a string of Character Episodes that just can't compete with Event Episodes, especially of the heavily serialized nature that B5's dishing out on the weekly now. DS9 could use a few Event Episodes of its own to catch up. VOY... hell, it needs a solid Character Episode at this point. It had plenty of them in S1, so it shouldn't be THAT hard, should it?

Weekly Winner:
B5

Next:
DS9 - Starship Down
VOY - Tatoo
B5 - Matters Of Honor

 

[apenpaap]

I would've given the last three weeks to DS9. Those B5 episodes were mediocre, while those were some very good DS9 episodes.

 

[Sykonee]

I would've given the last three weeks to DS9. Those B5 episodes were mediocre, while those were some very good DS9 episodes.

Really? How so?

 

[apenpaap]

I guess it's just taste. I don't like B5 overall very much anyway.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Rejoined is pretty good stuff. Indeed, I think it's probably Terry Farrell's best performance up to this point. The episode is a step down in quality from Indiscretion, however. The first four episodes of Season 4 were truly great.

The Fall of Night is, to be frank, ace. The drama of the incident, the appearance of Kosh, the way in which everything goes so very much to hell. Oh, and another appearance by John Vickery, even if not as Neroon. This guy is a legend.

Re: Sykonee's point about character episodes and event episodes. I actually think that, at this stage at least, the character episodes may be DS9's strong suit. I usually find B5's event episodes more exciting, but they don't really go in for the strongly one-character focused episodes DS9 does. I still maintain that Second Skin is the best episode up to this point.

 

[Kegg]

Interesting observation about event episodes trumping character episodes. I wouldn't always agree, but with B5 being heavier on event episodes, I wonder which show will come out on top when all this is said and done.

Oh, the lesbian kiss thing? Ah, B5 had 'suggestive' lesbianism just a few weeks prior (even though I never caught onto it until someone pointed it out; two women sleeping in the same bed when there's only one to share isn't that uncommon),

I remember B5 fans making a big deal about the show's lesbianism when they introduced me to it, so I was... well.. 'underwhelmed' by the Ivanonva/Talia stuff. It's vaguely kinda-sorta there and hell did she sleep with the show's Neelix I don't care anymore.

"Rejoined", uh... I like the idea better than the episode. It's a clever way to be about prejudice against homosexuality while implying such prejudice doesn't exist in the future, and unlike "The Outcast" it makes the implication explicit by having both romantic partners as women.

The episode itself is something of a drag, though. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Dax episode I liked all that much - Farrell tends to be a trifle too bland for me to care, and the same is true here.

 

[Sykonee]

In the long run, I think Character Episodes are crucial to the good development of a series. That way, when an Event Episode does occur, we have more interest invested in what happens to these characters. It's why something like WotW is such a fantastic episode, because we know the history of these people, and care about the consequences.

B5 managed to get in a decent amount of Character Episodes for much of its first two seasons too (although some weren't all that good), so now that we're hitting a string of major Event Episodes, we're fully invested in finding out What Happens Next.

But yeah, DS9 probably has the best Character Episodes at this point. Even when you can tell it's going to be a quiet-ish hour of television, you get the feeling it'll be worth your while to watch it anyway.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 10: (Ending 11.12.95)
DS9 - Starship Down (Airdate 11.06.95)
VOY - Tatoo (Airdate 11.06.95)
B5 - Matters Of Honor (Airdate 11.09.95)

I'm getting conflicting dates for DS9 again. According to Jammer's site, this was actually aired next week (with Little Green Men instead airing this week) whereas Memory Alpha has the show skipping this week altogether. Yet, the DVDs say Starship Down aired on this date. Ugh, I'm just going with the DVDs on this one -I've already watched it as such.

Speaking of DS9, great episode! While I wouldn't go so far as to call it an Event Episode, it's certainly an eventful episode -solid action and nearly everyone in the cast getting something to do. In the process, we get little insights into their characters, establishing where these people stand with one another at this point in the series, and even growing from it as well. So, it's an Eventful Action Character Episode. Sweet!

Tatoo's basically a Chakotay background Character Episode, which is decent enough. Nice to see he reconciled with his father and-

No, I won't get into that. It's stupid. Bad enough we had "all humanoid aliens come from a master race" bit of nonsense in TNG, now we have "aliens made all Native Americans spiritual People Of The Land" idiocy on VOY. I'm sorry, but anyone who's studied Mayan civilization (at the bare minimum) would know such a stereotyping of Native cultures is a load of malarkey. Ugh, sfdebris gets into it in better detail than I want to here. Bottom line is whatever nice character moments there are for Chakotay are totally undone by the rest.

B5, then. After a strong run of episodes finishing out S2, the S3 premier's gotta be killer, right? Eh... It's actually... kind of a let-down. Like the S2 premier, it spends a whole lot of time either wrapping up the previous season's plot threads (in this case, Londo and Morden going their separate ways, and everyone finally getting clued up into this Shadow business) all the while establishing new elements (Marcus' backstory, what the White Star is, etc.), much of which with lengthy exposition. Granted, Matters Of Honor is more competently handled than Points Of Departure was (certainly helps when you don't have to replace your lead), but it feels anti-climatic as a follow-up to The Fall Of Night.

Starship Down. Definitely the best of this week's clutch of episodes. Matters Of Honor was good to a degree, but DS9 was an overall more satisfying hour of TV. VOY... is left in the dust again; however, it might have a fighting chance with next week's episode, as word has it that other Caretaker alien is involved. A VOY Event Episode, perhaps?

Weekly Winner:
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Little Green Men
VOY - Cold Fire
B5 - Convictions

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I can't quite agree here. Both B5 and DS9 are good but not great this week, but I'd give Matters of Honor the nod. Starship Down is a decent episode, but I want more from my Dominion episodes! I do like the Kira stuff, though. The Kira/Sisko relationship is an interesting one. Matters of Honor has the advantage of opening a new phase in B5 since Franklin and Ivanova are now in on the Shadow thing and I liked the fact that Delenn got to kick someone's arse, signalling the advent of the more badass Delenn after her miserable times in Season 2. Also, it's the best B5 season opener so far - we won't get a really great one till The Hour of the Wolf, but this one is a step up from Points of Departure. And into the standalones...

 

[Sykonee]

Week 11: (Ending 11.19.95)
DS9 - Little Green Men (Airdate 11.13.95)
VOY - Cold Fire (Airdate 11.13.95)
B5 - Convictions (Airdate 11.16.95)

Wait, huh? I thought VOY was supposed to be an Event Episode this week. Isn't that the whole point of not only bringing back one of those Caretaker aliens, but to even go so far as to re-cap it in the beginning of the episode? Then what's it doing going off on a huge tangent to become a Kes Episode? Not that I'm complaining about that, per se. I really like Kes, and any character development for her is worth watching! But then, what was even the point of having Suspiria here? The two plots have barely anything to do with each other, with the potential Event Episode one turning into an afterthought of a B-plot. *sigh* VOY, you really, really, really do need to get your act together.

So, even though DS9 and B5 are steps down from where the two shows have already been this season, they're still well ahead of the game against VOY.

Oh, who won between DS9 and B5? Hm, tough call here. DS9 was good fun while B5 was deadly serious (though with a few light-hearted moments thrown in). Quark & co. as the Roswell aliens, or mad-psycho bomber on the station. It's a toss either way, depending on your mood or preference. I'm going with DS9 on this week, just because, in the long run, it makes a lasting impression from sheer audacity.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - The Sword Of Kahless
VOY - Maneuvers
B5 - A Day In The Strife

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Ooh, I can talk about all three of these!

DS9 wins this week. It's a funny and entertaining episode. I was a bit annoyed at Rom's instantly forgotten discovery of the secret of time travel, but it would be a mistake to take this episode too seriously.

Coming off the back of the previous four episodes, Convictions felt like a bit of a let down, which I supposed was bound to happen at some point. Still, it does have some of that Mike Vejar magic and the Londo-G'Kar scene is a good one. And I thought that "It's nothing personal, Captain; it's just the times." was a memorable line.

Cold Fire was OK. A lot of Voyager episodes put me to sleep, but this one held my attention and had some decent stuff in it. Big gripe: Janeway talks about how she's not given up hope of getting Suspiria to send them home, but then she jets off into the sunset. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just hang around and wait for her to come back?