DS9 on blu ray?

[tomswift2002]

As a side note, can anybody here actually explain to me if there's a quantifiable difference between 1080p and 1080i? I know the technical difference is about the fields-per-frame, and I also know that when I've used hardware to "downscale" things to a lesser resolution, the 1080p output produces a much less jerky result than 1080i. But is there actually a technical difference that makes one better than the other? Or is it just competing broadcast standards for different TV sets? (ala NTSC vs PAL.)

1080i actually adds some blur to the picture to get rid aliasing issues caused by the displaying of two fields---this is a carry-over from the days of 480i/576i video. However, saying that, in order to work properly, 1080p needs 60 frames per second to play smoothly (or 50 in PAL countries) whereas 1080p at 30 frames/25 frames which was originally implemented (based again on the old 480 30frames per second ). Also networks like ABC and FOX argue that you are displaying less than 720 with one 1920 by 540 field.

But as far as that trek news story goes, again they went to a source that is only third party. But Meyer is just a guy who had a contract with CBS, and his knowledge on the sales seems to be whatever CBS's press agents say. TOS was easier to remaster, but in 2006 it wasn't approved on just expected home media sales, it was expected Syndication sales and I would be very surprised if TNG-R were approved on just Blu-Ray projections alone. And yet everyone jumps to the conclusion that TNG-R didn't do well because a third party contractor says Blu-Rays didn't sell.

 

[Eric Cheung]

http://www.treknews.net/2017/02/02/why-ds9-voyager-not-on-blu-ray-hd/

This was a fascinating read, and I thought of this thread when I read it. If you like this article, I would suggest checking out a documentary called Side by Side, which I watched on PBS a few years ago. It's about the transition from film to digital video. One of the problems with digital filmmaking is that archiving can be a problem when hard drives get corrupted or technology goes out of date. Well-cared-for film can last indefinitely, and be played back with simple technology. That overlaps a bit with the concerns of this article.

I used to give tours at WGBH in Boston and one of my favorite topics was archiving. They're in the process of archiving a lot of their video and audio tapes, precisely because the shelf-life for those media is much shorter than for things like film, records, cylinders, etc. That project can be explored at Open Vault.

 

[BillJ]

TOS was easier to remaster, but in 2006 it wasn't approved on just expected home media sales, it was expected Syndication sales and I would be very surprised if TNG-R were approved on just Blu-Ray projections alone. And yet everyone jumps to the conclusion that TNG-R didn't do well because a third party contractor says Blu-Rays didn't sell.

TOS was also partially paid for by Toshiba, and they got the right of first release for the HD-DVD format over Blu-ray.

The more one does something, the better they get at it. The fact that CBS didn't go forward with DS9 or Voyager, even though they had a team that was making the process more economical with each passing day pretty much says it all. It made no sense to wait. Especially considering that CBS had no issue flooding the market by releasing Enterprise side-by-side with the later seasons of TNG-R.

You are right, it would be about more than just the home media sales, but what if broadcasters/content providers aren't interested in paying a premium for HD over SD on 25 year old material? That the gain in audience is so minimal as to not matter? Fans think content providers are stumbling over each other to buy HD Trek, and that probably isn't the case.

 

[timtonruben359]

The article on Trek News is disheartening but I'm not giving up hope entirely. The common consensus from people who worked on the TNG project, even some people from CBS, is that the desire is there to upgrade DS9 and VOY so they can be future proofed given the importance of the franchise but at present it would be too expensive and too time consuming for the amount of profit they can expect. However, with advances in technology, it's possible that a few years down the road from now the project could be done quicker and cheaper.

 

[Ethros]

And with added audio:

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That is amaaaaaazing, I really like that added flare at 0:05

Although my only pointless niggle is the penultimate bird of prey that's destroyed, in the original it clips it's wing on a Jem'Hadar fighter and then goes spinning into the bigger ship, whereas in that redone version in topples "head over heels" instead.

original; 1:35-

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I just searched for the battle on Youtube and found that btw, but that looks a pretty nice picture in of itself

 

[Tomalak]

Robert Meyer Burnett certainly isn't a man to use ten words when eleven hundred will do.

He's not really saying anything that hadn't been said already, but provided some useful authority. He's right that TNG-R is an incredible achievement that hasn't garnered the recognition it deserved, even among Star Trek fans. I never thought it would happen and I'm so glad it did.

And hasn't he basically outed the maker of the above YouTube battle scenes as Mojo himself?

 

[Tomalak]

However, with advances in technology, it's possible that a few years down the road from now the project could be done quicker and cheaper.

But as Burnett says, it's not a matter of technology, as you still need people to physically search through and catalogue hundreds of boxes of film, scan it all in HD and reassemble the episodes from scratch. You might shave money off certain technical aspects or the CGI replacement effects you'd need, but it's the cost of highly skilled technical staff that's crippling to the project.

 

[BillJ]

He's not really saying anything that hadn't been said already, but provided some useful authority. He's right that TNG-R is an incredible achievement that hasn't garnered the recognition it deserved, even among Star Trek fans. I never thought it would happen and I'm so glad it did.

I own the first five seasons on Blu-ray, and it is stunning.

 

[Tomalak]

I own the first five seasons on Blu-ray, and it is stunning.

Buy the other two!

 

[timtonruben359]

But as Burnett says, it's not a matter of technology, as you still need people to physically search through and catalogue hundreds of boxes of film, scan it all in HD and reassemble the episodes from scratch. You might shave money off certain technical aspects or the CGI replacement effects you'd need, but it's the cost of highly skilled technical staff that's crippling to the project.

I understand that outlook at the moment isn't good but as Spock says "there are always possibilities."

 

[timtonruben359]

Buy the other two!

Yes buy the other two and buy the DS9 Documentary when it comes out!

BTW the new DS9 DVDs are officially listed as bestseller on Canadian Amazon (Voyager is not).

 

[tomswift2002]

TOS was also partially paid for by Toshiba, and they got the right of first release for the HD-DVD format over Blu-ray.

The more one does something, the better they get at it. The fact that CBS didn't go forward with DS9 or Voyager, even though they had a team that was making the process more economical with each passing day pretty much says it all. It made no sense to wait. Especially considering that CBS had no issue flooding the market by releasing Enterprise side-by-side with the later seasons of TNG-R.

You are right, it would be about more than just the home media sales, but what if broadcasters/content providers aren't interested in paying a premium for HD over SD on 25 year old material? That the gain in audience is so minimal as to not matter? Fans think content providers are stumbling over each other to buy HD Trek, and that probably isn't the case.

I'd disagree. After TOS-R we saw CBS move the team over to the CSI franchise, and even get rid of some people. But even with Toshiba footing some of the bill, it did not guarantee that Trek would debut on HD-DVD. Infact the HD debut was on Microsoft's Xbox service.

But even now CBS is still signing broadcast deals for DS9 and Voyager. Bell Media's recent acquisition of all Star Trek would prove that, and that's for exclusive broadcast and SVOD (subscription-video-on-demand) rights. And while DS9 only airs once a day, Voyager airs upto 3 times a day, and from what I can tell they are the only 2 shows that Bell is paying for in SD that are currently being broadcast on a channel other than "Deja Vu", Bell's equivalent of "METV". And SPACE is an HD channel, not SD like Deja Vu.

But even with releasing TNG & Enterprise to Blu Ray at the same time you also have to ask why CBS stalled on Star Trek TAS? Animation, especially animated TV series, on Blu-Ray is a very weak category. TAS was ready to go 3 years ago, and the HD masters, like Enterprise were just lying around, and would've been cheap to put out, especially as we've seen aside from the upgrade, the set is the same as the 2006 DVD set. And yet CBS waited, and basically threw them in as a bonus set to the huge box set.

But DS9 & Voyager will see and HD upgrade.

 

[Tomalak]

You know that makes no sense. They had TAS ready to go for years and didn't bother to release it because blu-ray sales were poor. They threw it out as a half-arsed 50th anniversary release because there was literally nothing else in the archives to release. What looked like a new run of film releases got reduced down to just TWOK and repacks of the old discs in steelbooks.

And from that you conclude DS9 and Voyager will still get HD upgrades? I admire your dogged assurances, but it doesn't seem to reflect reality.

 

[BillJ]

I'll just reiterate a point I made earlier: I don't see CBS leaving money laying on the table. If there was this massive demand for DS9 and Voyager in HD by content providers, I think they would be doing it.

If the profitability isn't there, they simply won't be doing it. And I'm not sure the demand for DS9 and Voyager in HD goes up at any time in the future.

 

[Hey Missy]

There will never be a demand for DS9 that the two mainstream Treks - TOS and TNG - have. Even 25 years later, I still see DS9 labelled as "that boring space station show" within fan circles. Kinda sad, but their loss.

 

[tomswift2002]

And I'll reiterate a point from earlier, we haven't let the time lapse to see what CBS is going to do. BillJ I found old posts of yours from before THE 2009-11 era, before TNG-R, where you were saying the same thing about TNG.

And here's another point, Blu-Ray, just like DVD or any home video sale is a small part of the overall picture for CBS. With the recent Bell Media deal, while I wasn't able to find numbers, it would be interesting to know if Bell negotiated lower prices for DS9 and Voyager compared to TOS, TNG, Enterprise and Discovery. It's like the 70's right now where stations and networks were willing to pay more for color shows than black-&-white, so for example Warner Brothers was able to charge more for color prints of Seasons 3-6 of the George Reeve Superman, than they could for Seasons 1 & 2 that existed in only black and white. So there is more profit out there for CBS to get if both series were in HD rather than SD. Good grief, even Warner Brothers was able to claim that "Babylon 5" existed in HD back in the early 2000's just with the masters that were used for the DVD's when the show aired on Sci-Fi channel because they used PAL masters, and we all know that "SeaQuest DSV" has had the HD upgrade in Australia and Europe, when North America still hasn't received "SeaQuest 2032" on DVD. And clearly, "SeaQuest" had nowhere near the ratings of DS9 or Voyager and yet 20 years ago it underwent 2 post-production edits---1 to NTSC D2 Composite videotape for NTSC markets, and an edit to 35mm film with the CGI coming from D1 videotape (from what I've read, it sounds like the D1 might've been mastered at PAL resolution and frame rate in order to go to film).

 

[timtonruben359]

Apparently the DS9 DVD sales are doing surprisingly well I know that won't change things but it's a good thing to see. I personally think there is more interest in seeing DS9 upgraded than CBS realizes.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Apparently the DS9 DVD sales are doing surprisingly well I know that won't change things but it's a good thing to see. I personally think there is more interest in seeing DS9 upgraded than CBS realizes.

As long as the DVDs are selling in big numbers, why would they produce a BD version? All those people that have bought the DVD box set now are highly unlikely willing to buy the whole set again in a year or two.

People NOT buying the new box set, maybe THAT would make CBS think.

 

[kkt]

I thought buying the box set would make CBS realize people were still interested in the show?

 

[timtonruben359]

As long as the DVDs are selling in big numbers, why would they produce a BD version? All those people that have bought the DVD box set now are highly unlikely willing to buy the whole set again in a year or two.

People NOT buying the new box set, maybe THAT would make CBS think.

That's not how the industry works. Any business wants to make a profit on any product they put out. CBS is not going to go "hey look no one is buying the DS9 DVDs so it must mean we should spend $20 million and upgrade it to HD." Rather they would say "hey look DS9 DVDs are selling like hot cakes which means there must be a market for this show. Are the sales enough to justify the investment to upgrade it to HD?"

We've been told by virtually everyone involved in the TNG upgrade that CBS' reservations with doing a DS9 upgrade are because the TNG blu-ray sales were a disappointment (particularly the later seasons) and that they believe the market isn't there for DS9 or VOY.

I thought buying the box set would make CBS realize people were still interested in the show?

You are correct. The best way to show CBS that there is still a market for DS9 in HD is by purchasing Trek DVDs and Blu-rays.