DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence - Part 9,782

[Guy Gardener]

^^Give me a break, they had no intentions of killing off another cast member on DS9 if Ferrell didn't leave. So his point still stands that nobody from the main cast would have died during a war.

Kes was part of the primary cast and they didn't kill her off, she just evolved and left................alive!

Damar was envious of Ziyal from day one. He was looking for any excuse to get her out of the picture. Calling her a traitor was just the excuse he needed. Ziyal didn't die due to war, she was murdered due to Damar's jealousy.

Where did you get that unproven accusation about Damar from?

The whole point of Damar murdering Ziyal was that he followed the poisonous legacy of the ruling ideology in the Union to it's bitter conclusion which started Damar down the road to self destruction IMO, a much better storyline than some bloody soap opera angst fest

Oh come on! Damar was totally gay for Dukat. Maybe he didn't know how to deal with those urges and he was so confused he thought that his boner was for the cause and that... You read King Lear? Love is not a finite resource which is cut into definite static fractions and hells is it not that lovers and childrens love is not interchangable...

Why wouldn't they want to kiss a little when it gets cold?

 

[Deckerd]

I think he was totally loyal to Dukat. I didn't get a gay vibe, though. More irritation at Ziyal's silliness.

 

[DevilEyes]

I don't know, he's given us 8 pages of discussion/ argument so far.

More power to ya, Anwar.

Yes, 8 pages of repeating the same illogical non-argument is better than posting it once and learning better... sure, whatever.

The site is meant for discussion & debate and he's provided just that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, he's still provided something to discuss.

Um, it's not a matter of me agreeing with him or not. It's a matter of him using ILLOGICAL arguments... or should I say, non-arguments. I could just as well start posting things like "If Picard or Janeway did X (insert something that Sisko did and they did not and that Anwar criticized him for) you, Anwar, would be praising them for it" or "if Y happened on DS9 (insert something that never happened on DS9, but did on Voyager) you haters would complaing about it all day long, but since it happened on Voyager, you loved it" - and I could go on like that for 8 pages. We all could. But we don't, because it doesn't make any sense. It can't be proven, it is not a proper argument, and therefore does not constitute a good discussion. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[exodus]

Yes, 8 pages of repeating the same illogical non-argument is better than posting it once and learning better... sure, whatever.

The site is meant for discussion & debate and he's provided just that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, he's still provided something to discuss.

Um, it's not a matter of me agreeing with him or not. It's a matter of him using ILLOGICAL arguments... or should I say, non-arguments. I could just as well start posting things like "If Picard or Janeway did X (insert something that Sisko did and they did not and that Anwar criticized him for) you, Anwar, would be praising them for it" or "if Y happened on DS9 (insert something that never happened on DS9, but did on Voyager) you haters would complaing about it all day long, but since it happened on Voyager, you loved it" - and I could go on like that for 8 pages. We all could. But we don't, because it doesn't make any sense. It can't be proven, it is not a proper argument, and therefore does not constitute a good discussion. Is that so hard to understand?

Give me a freakin' break, it's Star Trek. No debate here, logical or illogical means a hill of beans. This place is supposed to be for entertainment.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's about process.

The journey is more important than the destination. So what if we're tilting at windmills, isn't it fun enough just participating in the game? It's not like we're trying to feed bacon to a Jew, or make a catholic wear a condom or force an Australian to to go on a sheep rape diet. In all talking reason to unreasonable people has to be fun if you don't want to end up swallowing the muzzle end of a pistol.

All loyalty is love, and all love is sexual.

try not to vomit thinking about that.

 

[Deckerd]

I don't need to vomit because it's not true, except in your own experience. Making sweeping comments about love is guaranteed to sound pompous. And wrong.

 

[exodus]

It's about process.

The journey is more important than the destination. So what if we're tilting at windmills, isn't it fun enough just participating in the game? It's not like we're trying to feed bacon to a Jew, or make a catholic wear a condom or force an Australian to to go on a sheep rape diet. In all talking reason to unreasonable people has to be fun if you don't want to end up swallowing the muzzle end of a pistol.

All loyalty is love, and all love is sexual.

try not to vomit thinking about that.

This was a great post, I especially loved the "feed bacon to a Jew".

 

[DevilEyes]

All loyalty is love, and all love is sexual.

Just a question, do you happen to have any kids?

 

[DevilEyes]

The site is meant for discussion & debate and he's provided just that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, he's still provided something to discuss.

Um, it's not a matter of me agreeing with him or not. It's a matter of him using ILLOGICAL arguments... or should I say, non-arguments. I could just as well start posting things like "If Picard or Janeway did X (insert something that Sisko did and they did not and that Anwar criticized him for) you, Anwar, would be praising them for it" or "if Y happened on DS9 (insert something that never happened on DS9, but did on Voyager) you haters would complaing about it all day long, but since it happened on Voyager, you loved it" - and I could go on like that for 8 pages. We all could. But we don't, because it doesn't make any sense. It can't be proven, it is not a proper argument, and therefore does not constitute a good discussion. Is that so hard to understand?

Give me a freakin' break, it's Star Trek. No debate here, logical or illogical means a hill of beans. This place is supposed to be for entertainment.

Ah, OK then...

Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow.
Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD.

 

[Anwar]

I'm pointing out the double standard Niners have towards their own show compared to the other Modern Trek series. You're explosiveness is just further proof of volatile and defensive Niners get when anyone dares to point out this out and that DS9 was less than perfect.

 

[Bluesteel]

^^Give me a break, they had no intentions of killing off another cast member on DS9 if Ferrell didn't leave. So his point still stands that nobody from the main cast would have died during a war.

Kes was part of the primary cast and they didn't kill her off, she just evolved and left................alive!

Damar was envious of Ziyal from day one. He was looking for any excuse to get her out of the picture. Calling her a traitor was just the excuse he needed. Ziyal didn't die due to war, she was murdered due to Damar's jealousy.

Where did you get that unproven accusation about Damar from?

The whole point of Damar murdering Ziyal was that he followed the poisonous legacy of the ruling ideology in the Union to it's bitter conclusion which started Damar down the road to self destruction IMO, a much better storyline than some bloody soap opera angst fest

Oh come on! Damar was totally gay for Dukat. Maybe he didn't know how to deal with those urges and he was so confused he thought that his boner was for the cause and that... You read King Lear? Love is not a finite resource which is cut into definite static fractions and hells is it not that lovers and childrens love is not interchangable...

Why wouldn't they want to kiss a little when it gets cold?

Are we both talking about the same character? The character I saw was a wide-eyed lad who looked up to Dukat has an example of what a true Cardassian soldier was. Fighting the Klingon Occupation force with just a single BoP. He killed Ziyal because she didn't appreciate the fact that she was Cardassian or Dukats daugther. She betrayed them for her friends.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm pointing out the double standard Niners have towards their own show compared to the other Modern Trek series.

*sigh* Read carefully: you're not pointing it out, because you haven't actually pointed out anything that really exists. "My crystal ball tells me that if X happened, then you would say Y..." is not "pointing out" anything, it's just a speculation, based on nothing. Or at least nothing that you've been able to articulate in your posts.

You're explosiveness is just further proof of volatile and defensive Niners get when anyone dares to point out this out and that DS9 was less than perfect.

I am explosiveness? Thank you... whatever that means.

Oh Anwar, Anwar...I couldn't be defensive even if I tried, when there is nothing to defend from. Perhaps there would been, if you were able to actually form a coherent argument that satisfies the basic requirement of logic. Sorry if I frightened you with what you call "volatility", but I was just becoming a little impatient with your insistence on repeatedly displaying the same illogical mode of thinking, even after people have told you several times what exactly you are doing wrong.

But now that I've been enlightened by our friend exodus and realized that this is actually not a serious discussion... I'm perfectly OK with it. I will stop making sense. Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow! Angry green ideas sleep furiously! See? How am I doing?

 

[teya]

Nobody gets paid for auditions.

Producers don't get paid extra for auditioning actors because that's expected of them and already factored into their salary.

Memory Alpha:

She sounds good, I bet using her as a casting director is expensive. I bet the writers on Voyager wished they hadn't paid for her services so often.

She's got a contract. She gets paid no more per cast member cast.

Nah, I'd be surprised if someone like Garrett Wang was being paid much more than the guest actors. It's not like as if the casts on Star Trek are Hollywood A-listers.

Even if he were getting scale, Wang was making more than the guest actors--a sizeable amount more.

It's all in the SAG contract.

 

[teya]

In other words, you'll need to provide evidence for your claims beyond things that you yourself have said.

I'd suggest you do the same thing. I've found so many errors in your analysis of casting on Voyager it's making my eyeballs bleed.

Just one other...

The money savings achieved by firing Beltran & Wang and hiring recurring actors in their place.

I take it you've never heard of SAG and the contracts regular actors have?

 

[Anwar]

*sigh* Read carefully: you're not pointing it out, because you haven't actually pointed out anything that really exists. "My crystal ball tells me that if X happened, then you would say Y..." is not "pointing out" anything, it's just a speculation, based on nothing. Or at least nothing that you've been able to articulate in your posts.

VOY haters/Niners wanted recurring villains, yet when VOY did that all they got for it was criticisms over how dumb it was to run into the same villains more than once. Double standard.

Niners/Voy haters say that VOY should've focused more on their original villains rather than overusing the TNG ones like the Borg. Yet every single VOY race, even the cool ones like 8472 or the Vidiians, were despised and had to be desposed of. Double Standard.

VOY haters/Niners complain that lots and lots of people should have died on VOY. Yet in DS9 the only main cast member to die was killed off due to a contract dispute and not because they wanted to show how bad war was. In fact they'd have been angered and offended if any of the DS9 main cast died due to plot reasons. Double Standard.

From these examples it's crystal clear that there's nothing VOY could've done to appease the Niners/Haters, and that they'd just hate everything they did.

Of course, had any of VOY's aliens been DS9 aliens (like the Vidiians been survivors of a plague unleashed by the Dominion) no one would be complaining. Why? Because Niners can't accept anything bad about their own show and like it all.

I am explosiveness? Thank you... whatever that means.

It means you freak out whenever someone points out that Niners aren't Saints.

Oh Anwar, Anwar...I couldn't be defensive even if I tried, when there is nothing to defend from. Perhaps there would been, if you were able to actually form a coherent argument that satisfies the basic requirement of logic.

Not my fault if you can't accept you're a prejudiced hater with endless double standards.

Sorry if I frightened you with what you call "volatility", but I was just becoming a little impatient with your insistence on repeatedly displaying the same illogical mode of thinking, even after people have told you several times what exactly you are doing wrong.

All you say is "no, you're wrong" without backing yourself up.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

VOY haters/Niners wanted recurring villains, yet when VOY did that all they got for it was criticisms over how dumb it was to run into the same villains more than once. Double standard.

Well I thought Seska was cool. No double standard.

Niners/Voy haters say that VOY should've focused more on their original villains rather than overusing the TNG ones like the Borg. Yet every single VOY race, even the cool ones like 8472 or the Vidiians, were despised and had to be desposed of. Double Standard.

I, and probably many other DS9 fans, liked the Vidiians and 8472, it's the Kazon that people tended not to like. No double standard.

VOY haters/Niners complain that lots and lots of people should have died on VOY.

Really?

From these examples it's crystal clear that there's nothing VOY could've done to appease the Niners/Haters, and that they'd just hate everything they did.

Niners may often not like Voyager, but I find it hard to believe that most of them, Trekkies as they are, deliberately set out not to be entertained by Star Trek.

Of course, had any of VOY's aliens been DS9 aliens (like the Vidiians been survivors of a plague unleashed by the Dominion) no one would be complaining. Why? Because Niners can't accept anything bad about their own show and like it all.

Maybe you should ask someone about the Skrreeans if you think Niners love all the aliens from DS9. Hell, quite a few don't even like the Bajorans!

 

[Guy Gardener]

All loyalty is love, and all love is sexual.

Just a question, do you happen to have any kids?

Yes, but I don't love him. I barely tolerate the bastard.

The homodenial is strong in this group.

 

[Thestral]

I see a by-the-books soldier in "Return to Grace" who isn't personally jealous, but somewhat racist and disturbed for his mentor. By the time of SoA, there's no indication he harbors any ill will towards Ziyal aside from exasperation at (what he saw as) her naivite. If he was really jealous and full of rage, why would he consumed with guilt and having trouble sleeping over his murder of Ziyal?

Are we watching the same show?

The word you're looking for is called "remorse".
It's one thing to hate somebody, it's another to take a life.

Yes, he was remorseful for what he did, and I would argue that remorse over killing Ziyal was his first step towards rebelling against the Dominion. Maybe.

But his being remorseful doesn't therefore mean that he wanted to kill Ziyal in the first place. He thought she was naive, at best, and a reminder of his mentor's failures. But there's no reason to assume he hated her and wanted to kill her. His shooting her in SoA makes perfect sense for a loyal-to-a-fault Cardassian who already mistrusts her - mistrust is not hatred or jealousy - and has heard her admit to treason and sabotage. AND is proving a dangerous distraction for his mentor by all appearances.

The whole reason we're even debating this is because I said Ziyal was killed as a direct outcome of the ongoing Dominion War. Even if Damar did hate Ziyal and was jealous of her - which I'm not willing to concede - his justification for shooting her was that she admitted to treason and sabotage. Thus, Ziyal aids Allied rebels against Dominion ---> Damar shoots Ziyal for treachery. How can this not be a result of the War?

The site is meant for discussion & debate and he's provided just that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, he's still provided something to discuss.

But is it discussion if he just keeps saying the same thing over and over? Later on in this post, I could very easily cut and paste something from upthread.

VOY haters/Niners

First, please stop with this, because the two are not the same. You've had several people in this thread who have come in, declared themselves Niners, and said "VOY's not for me, but it's cool if you like it." I am one of them. You've had one Niner come in here with a "hateful" attitude towards VOY. I am a Niner. I am not a VOY hater.

VOY haters/Niners wanted recurring villains, yet when VOY did that all they got for it was criticisms over how dumb it was to run into the same villains more than once. Double standard.

Your'e wrong. I really liked revisiting the Hirogen and 8472. I liked the concept of the Kazon, even if I feel the execution could have been better. I really wish we had revisited the Voth, and one of my favorite things is how Year of Hell followed up on Before and After.

Niners/Voy haters say that VOY should've focused more on their original villains rather than overusing the TNG ones like the Borg. Yet every single VOY race, even the cool ones like 8472 or the Vidiians, were despised and had to be desposed of. Double Standard.

You're wrong. As a Niner, 8472 are one of my favorite adversarial Star Trek aliens, and their appearance at the beginning of Scorpion made me go . You know you've got a good villain when the Borg seem less threatening. The Vidiians were eh, for me, but I appreciate how much others like them. I think the Voth were a really awesome villain and wish they'd shown up more than just once. The Hirogen were solid, if not terribly original, and their appearance in TrekLit's Destiny series was fantastic. Just to name a few.

VOY haters/Niners complain that lots and lots of people should have died on VOY.

You're wrong. As a Niner, rampant death would have been a poor idea, even if the loss of one or two major/recurring characters could have been well done.

Yet in DS9 the only main cast member to die was killed off due to a contract dispute and not because they wanted to show how bad war was. In fact they'd have been angered and offended if any of the DS9 main cast died due to plot reasons. Double Standard.

You're wrong. As a Niner, I would not have been angered or offended if one of the DS9 main cast (or more secondary characters) died due to plot reasons. Besides, some of the characters killed during the war were more popular than some of the main cast.

Of course, had any of VOY's aliens been DS9 aliens (like the Vidiians been survivors of a plague unleashed by the Dominion) no one would be complaining. Why? Because Niners can't accept anything bad about their own show and like it all.

You're most definitely wrong here. Otherwise there wouldn't be the endless bitching about boring Jadzia, stupid Pah-Wraiths, annoying Bajorans, pointless Klingon war plot, creepy Odo/Kira romance... etc...

All you say is "no, you're wrong" without backing yourself up.

Here's some backup for you!

 

[Smiley]

I can buy that the Voth, Hirogen, and a few other races could plausibly appear on VOY across multiple episodes or seasons. They have the warp technology and/or territory size to make it plausible. Alternately, if there was a throwaway line about how some other villain with appeal but poorer warp drive fell through a wormhole, I would have welcomed that as well.

The problem with the Kazon is more that they are uninteresting space bullies. If the Wadi (the "Allamaraine" game-players) had made multiple appearances on DS9, I would be griping about that. For a double standard to exist, there needs to be an apples-to-apples comparison in which one side gets a pass for the exact same thing for which the other side is getting zinged. I don't see how one exists in this case.

 

[DevilEyes]

But is it discussion if he just keeps saying the same thing over and over? Later on in this post, I could very easily cut and paste something from upthread.
First, please stop with this, because the two are not the same. You've had several people in this thread who have come in, declared themselves Niners, and said "VOY's not for me, but it's cool if you like it." I am one of them. You've had one Niner come in here with a "hateful" attitude towards VOY. I am a Niner. I am not a VOY hater.
Your'e wrong. I really liked revisiting the Hirogen and 8472. I liked the concept of the Kazon, even if I feel the execution could have been better. I really wish we had revisited the Voth, and one of my favorite things is how Year of Hell followed up on Before and After.

You're wrong. As a Niner, 8472 are one of my favorite adversarial Star Trek aliens, and their appearance at the beginning of Scorpion made me go . You know you've got a good villain when the Borg seem less threatening. The Vidiians were eh, for me, but I appreciate how much others like them. I think the Voth were a really awesome villain and wish they'd shown up more than just once. The Hirogen were solid, if not terribly original, and their appearance in TrekLit's Destiny series was fantastic. Just to name a few.

You're wrong. As a Niner, rampant death would have been a poor idea, even if the loss of one or two major/recurring characters could have been well done.

You're wrong. As a Niner, I would not have been angered or offended if one of the DS9 main cast (or more secondary characters) died due to plot reasons. Besides, some of the characters killed during the war were more popular than some of the main cast.

Of course, had any of VOY's aliens been DS9 aliens (like the Vidiians been survivors of a plague unleashed by the Dominion) no one would be complaining. Why? Because Niners can't accept anything bad about their own show and like it all.

You're most definitely wrong here. Otherwise there wouldn't be the endless bitching about boring Jadzia, stupid Pah-Wraiths, annoying Bajorans, pointless Klingon war plot, creepy Odo/Kira romance... etc...

I'm one of those that bitch about the stupid Pah-wraiths all the time. Substract the other items from your list (Bajorans, Klingon war, Jadzia, Odo/Kira) and add the stupid "Sisko's mom possessed by a Prophet" plot, annoying Ferengi episodes, boring Kira/Shakaar pairing, pointless standalones, Klingon episodes that are not tied to the main plot, and the entire episode "Fascination", and you have my list (although I could have forgotten something).

I can buy that the Voth, Hirogen, and a few other races could plausibly appear on VOY across multiple episodes or seasons. They have the warp technology and/or territory size to make it plausible. Alternately, if there was a throwaway line about how some other villain with appeal but poorer warp drive fell through a wormhole, I would have welcomed that as well.

The problem with the Kazon is more that they are uninteresting space bullies. If the Wadi (the "Allamaraine" game-players) had made multiple appearances on DS9, I would be griping about that. For a double standard to exist, there needs to be an apples-to-apples comparison in which one side gets a pass for the exact same thing for which the other side is getting zinged. I don't see how one exists in this case.

Give him credit, he was repetitive as always, but at least this time he managed to write an entire post without an "if" sentence in it. I expected him to post something like "If Neelix were on DS9, Niners would consider him the greatest character in Trek" or some similar assumption, but he abstained this time. That's already an improvement.