DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence - Part 9,782

[exodus]

We're talking directly killed by the war, as in killed in battle with the Jem'Hadar. Ziyal was killed by Damar, Gowron was killed by Worf, Kor basically committed suicide and Eddington met his end becuase he was a terrorist.

Yes, thank you.

 

[JustKate]

I can't remember if they qualify as Niners (because I have no recollection who they were or if they're still around or anything), but I do remember that there have been in various "How to improve Voyager" threads people who advocated totally changing the VOY cast every now and then - you know, have one major character die, a couple decide to be left behind on some pleasant DQ world and so on.

This was to be done, if I remember correctly, in the name of "realism."

I don't necessarily think that having some changeover is a bad thing, but I can't say as I'm thrilled with the idea of losing all of the characters that I care about, the ones that made me want to watch the show to begin with.

 

[Thestral]

Eddington died prior to the war due to his role as a terrorist,

Alright, I'll accept that one, though I think most folk would still see him as being killed by the war, even if it hadn't officially started. Much the same as the Rape of Nanjing is widely considered part of WW2 despite the War's not "officially" starting for two more years.

Kor basically committed suicide (though it was in a war battle),

Have you never heard of a heroic last stand to buy time for your allies to escape? May I assume you think the 300 Spartans "basically commited suicide" as well?

Ziyal was killed by Damar.

Hey look, nobody disagrees with that, woohoo! Of course she was killed by Damar, she was executed as a traitor and saboteur. The White Rose were executed by the Nazis, not in combat, does that make their deaths any less a result of the war?

Good to know we agree on Gowron though.

And anyways, Dax was only killed off due to Terry Farrell having some contract dispute not because it aided the story. If not for that then NO ONE in the primary cast would have died. And yet we have Niners calling for the mass execution of VOY's entire cast. Again with the double standard.

No, we do not "have Niners calling for the mass execution of VOY's entire cast." Point to me where that was said. I want a post or other written statement indicating this is a general sentiment.

You can't bring behind-the-scenes logic in when you're talking about results in-universe because then who knows? Maybe if Farrell had stayed onboard somebody else would have died in S7. Maybe no-one. As it is, Jadzia Dax died as a direct result of the war.

And anyways, Kim was only not killed off due to Garret Wang having some award for beautiful people of the year not because it aided the story. If not for that then SOMEONE in the primary cast would have died.

ETA:

And if you're going to keep saying (as upthread) that DS9 was losing money per episode, you're going to have to produce direct statements to that effect by somebody with financial knowledge of the shows, OR produce financial records, AND explain how that situation would have been allowed by Berman and Paramount. Otherwise, consider that claim dismissed.

And why did Vorik and Icheb keep coming back?

We're talking directly killed by the war, as in killed in battle with the Jem'Hadar. Ziyal was killed by Damar, Gowron was killed by Worf, Kor basically committed suicide and Eddington met his end becuase he was a terrorist.

Yes, thank you.

Yes, and every single one of those is directly attributable to the War, except perhaps Eddington. The White Rose were killed by the Nazis, Hitler's life was attempted by von Stauffenberg, and King Leonidas basically committed suicide.

 

[exodus]

^^Give me a break, they had no intentions of killing off another cast member on DS9 if Ferrell didn't leave. So his point still stands that nobody from the main cast would have died during a war.

Kes was part of the primary cast and they didn't kill her off, she just evolved and left................alive!

Damar was envious of Ziyal from day one. He was looking for any excuse to get her out of the picture. Calling her a traitor was just the excuse he needed. Ziyal didn't die due to war, she was murdered due to Damar's jealousy.

 

[apenpaap]

Double standard dude, double standard. It's okay for Sisko to take out a Borg cube with a runabout, but if VOY every destroyed a Jem'Hadar bug fighter there'd be hell to pay from the Niners.

You keep saying that, but would you care to give a reason that makes you think that?

Besides, you keep going on about the double standard of your Big Niner Conspiracy, but what about your own? Someone who critisizes Voyager, even on small points, is a hater, has a double standard, and once a hater, always a hater. However, you give major critisisms of DS9, largely unsubstantiated, and these things don't apply to you?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

DS9 has a devoted fandom. Hell, Stargate Atlantis has a devoted fandom - that some folks adore a television series proves nothing about its quality.

 

[TheGodBen]

Nobody gets paid for auditions.

Producers don't get paid extra for auditioning actors because that's expected of them and already factored into their salary.

Memory Alpha:

In addition to her work with the Star Trek, Lowry-Johnson has been the casting director for many other well-known television shows including NYPD Blue, Murder One, Six Feet Under, Tremors, Deadwood, Ugly Betty, and Desperate Housewives. She has also worked on a number of feature films, including La Bamba, The Hand That Rocks the Cradle, and America's Sweethearts. She and Ron Surma have cast a number of non-Trek movies together, including Liar Liar, Grosse Point Blank, and Bruce Almighty.

A member of the Casting Society of America, Lowry-Johnson has received six Emmy Awards for Outstanding Casting – two for NYPD Blue, two for Six Feet Under, one for Desperate Housewives, and one for Ugly Betty – as well as eight additional nominations for NYPD Blue, Deadwood, Big Love, Desperate Housewives, and the TV movies Gia and Mrs. Harris. Her Emmy awards and nominations for Six Feet Under, Deadwood, Big Love, Ugly Betty, Gia, and Mrs. Harris have been shared with Libbyann Goldstein, who worked with her on all of these productions. Lowry-Johnson has also received a total of 31 Artios nominations from the Casting Society of America, winning nine of them.

She sounds good, I bet using her as a casting director is expensive. I bet the writers on Voyager wished they hadn't paid for her services so often.

Also I think people over estimate how much Trek actors get paid, which isn't as much as you'd think. It's very, very rare to get paid "Friends" or "CSI" salary.

Nah, I'd be surprised if someone like Garrett Wang was being paid much more than the guest actors. It's not like as if the casts on Star Trek are Hollywood A-listers.

It was syndicated, and they had VOY to make up for the money lost on DS9 (and they had their bases covered, in that after the show was done they could easily sell it into syndication thus increasing money made even if the show didn't make tons of cash).

This is the third thread where I have asked you to provide any evidence that DS9 was losing money and this is the third time that you have failed to do so. And this is the third time where I have pointed out that Voyager was getting fewer viewers than DS9 and this is the third time that you have dismissed that as being unimportant.

Don't you see where the real double standard is in this thread?

VOY was a network show, on a network not everyone got. DS9 was syndicated and thus should have been making more. That it broke even with VOY showed it wasn't.

It didn't break even, it was consistently beating Voyager.

And they stopped showing up or were killed off. If they made more money they likely would have kept coming back.

Then why weren't characters like Chakotay and Kim utilised more? After all, they were contractually obliged to show up week after week, so why didn't the Voyager writers decide to focus more time on them rather than hiring guest actors if guest actors are considered to be so hideously expensive?

Double standard dude, double standard. It's okay for Sisko to take out a Borg cube with a runabout...

No, it's not. How many times must this be repeated?

The slightest bit higher is enough of a difference.

 

[exodus]

Nobody gets paid for auditions.

Producers don't get paid extra for auditioning actors because that's expected of them and already factored into their salary.

Memory Alpha:

She sounds good, I bet using her as a casting director is expensive. I bet the writers on Voyager wished they hadn't paid for her services so often.


Nah, I'd be surprised if someone like Garrett Wang was being paid much more than the guest actors. It's not like as if the casts on Star Trek are Hollywood A-listers.


This is the third thread where I have asked you to provide any evidence that DS9 was losing money and this is the third time that you have failed to do so. And this is the third time where I have pointed out that Voyager was getting fewer viewers than DS9 and this is the third time that you have dismissed that as being unimportant.

Don't you see where the real double standard is in this thread?


It didn't break even, it was consistently beating Voyager.


Then why weren't characters like Chakotay and Kim utilised more? After all, they were contractually obliged to show up week after week, so why didn't the Voyager writers decide to focus more time on them rather than hiring guest actors if guest actors are considered to be so hideously expensive?

Double standard dude, double standard. It's okay for Sisko to take out a Borg cube with a runabout...

No, it's not. How many times must this be repeated?

The slightest bit higher is enough of a difference.

This was your original comment in which you pointed out "the characters":

"Yes, but they had guest characters showing up episode after episode, and you have to pay for the costs of auditioning them week after week. With recurring roles you just have to pay them for every day they show up, you don't have to go through the process of auditioning them."

Based upon your statement is what my reply is based on. No where did you mention production or casting agents, just the actors playing the characters and their salary. Casting is already factored into the shows original budget because they're held on retainer, like the contractors for lighting, set design, catering, etc.

 

[Anwar]

Vorik came back due to Nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

I already gave the proof: That DS9's ratings were SO far below what TNG's had been shows it was losing money. Voyager was on a small network not everyone got, and that DS9's rating weren't even THAT much better than VOY even though it was syndicated means that it was losing money.

Why weren't Chakotay and Kim used more? There's only so much than can be done with a plank of wood.

And yes, if Sisko did everything that Janeway did against the Borg no one would've complained. If Janeway had been the half-Prophet Emissary commander of DS9 everyone would've criticized her every decision and "In the Pale Moonlight" would be regarded the same as "Threshold".

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Double standard dude, double standard. It's okay for Sisko to take out a Borg cube with a runabout, but if VOY every destroyed a Jem'Hadar bug fighter there'd be hell to pay from the Niners.

You mean the Straw Niners?

 

[TheGodBen]

This was your original comment in which you pointed out "the characters":

"Yes, but they had guest characters showing up episode after episode, and you have to pay for the costs of auditioning them week after week. With recurring roles you just have to pay them for every day they show up, you don't have to go through the process of auditioning them."

Based upon your statement is what my reply is based on. No where did you mention production or casting agents, just the actors playing the characters and their salary.

...and you have to pay for the costs of auditioning them week after week.

It's a neat twist because this time you're criticising me for not saying something which I actually said, rather than for saying something I actually didn't.

Casting is already factored into the shows original budget because they're held on retainer, like the contractors for lighting, set design, catering, etc.

And I'm sure they could have had a better deal each season if they weren't going to be calling upon the services of the casting director as much. If I was the EP of a TV show and I went from needing 50 new actors a season to 25, I would renegotiate my casting director's salary because they're not going to be doing as much work.

I already gave the proof: That DS9's ratings were SO far below what TNG's had been shows it was losing money. Voyager was on a small network not everyone got, and that DS9's rating weren't even THAT much better than VOY even though it was syndicated means that it was losing money.

That's not proof, it doesn't even make sense. Watch this:

The Belgian civil war lasted from 1642 to 1978, and 42,000,000,000 people died during the fighting.

See, I made that up, it has no basis in fact and no evidence to support it. Yes, I said it, but that doesn't make it factual unless I provide evidence, and in this case I'm not going to provide evidence because I know I've just made it up.

In other words, you'll need to provide evidence for your claims beyond things that you yourself have said.

Why weren't Chakotay and Kim used more? There's only so much than can be done with a plank of wood.

Fire them, hire some recurring actors. Problem solved. After all, every little cut helps...

And yes, if Sisko did everything that Janeway did against the Borg no one would've complained.

I wish you'd pay attention to what everybody else but you says.

 

[DevilEyes]

Vorik came back due to Nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

I already gave the proof: That DS9's ratings were SO far below what TNG's had been shows it was losing money. Voyager was on a small network not everyone got, and that DS9's rating weren't even THAT much better than VOY even though it was syndicated means that it was losing money.

Why weren't Chakotay and Kim used more? There's only so much than can be done with a plank of wood.

And yes, if Sisko did everything that Janeway did against the Borg no one would've complained. If Janeway had been the half-Prophet Emissary commander of DS9 everyone would've criticized her every decision and "In the Pale Moonlight" would be regarded the same as "Threshold".

Sorry to barge in into this fascinating discussion that I really don't have the patience of reading all the way through, but Anwar, I really must ask, do you have any arguments based on reality, or does your every "argument" of yours consist of a hypothetical situation you made up?

You are certainly fond of logical fallacies... I hope that you won't, at least, start bringing up circular arguments again, as on the TNG vs DS9 thread...
(for those who have missed it - paraphrased:
Anwar: "DS9 is utterly gloomy and hopeless"
Others: "Prove it"
Anwar: "Nothing good is ever going to happen to any of the characters, Cardassia will never recover, Romulus will start a war with the Federation, the future of every race will suck, there is no hope for anyone..."
Others: "And how do you know that?!"
Anwar: "Because it's DS9, and DS9 is gloomy and hopeless" )

 

[Anwar]

That's not proof, it doesn't even make sense. Watch this:

The Belgian civil war lasted from 1642 to 1978, and 42,000,000,000 people died during the fighting.

See, I made that up, it has no basis in fact and no evidence to support it. Yes, I said it, but that doesn't make it factual unless I provide evidence, and in this case I'm not going to provide evidence because I know I've just made it up.

Compare the ratings from TNG to DS9, both are syndicated. DS9 suffered a MEGA drop as it went on. To Paramount, that DS9 was not gaining the same ratings as TNG meant it was losing the money they had hoped it would earn. VOY was then made and put on a small network Paramount had acquired, a netowork not a lot of people had. Despite this, DS9's continued ratings were still only a little better than VOY. That a small network show could compete with a syndicated one is more proof that DS9 was losing money compared to the standard set by TNG.

Fire them, hire some recurring actors. Problem solved. After all, every little cut helps...

They couldn't get rid of Wang due to the TIME magazine thing he was in, and the possible racist backfire of letting the asian of the show go. Same with Beltran and his ethnicity. They were stuck with them.

I wish you'd pay attention to what everybody else but you says.

I do, and I see that there are others who agree with me about the DS9 double standard.

 

[exodus]

This was your original comment in which you pointed out "the characters":

"Yes, but they had guest characters showing up episode after episode, and you have to pay for the costs of auditioning them week after week. With recurring roles you just have to pay them for every day they show up, you don't have to go through the process of auditioning them."

Based upon your statement is what my reply is based on. No where did you mention production or casting agents, just the actors playing the characters and their salary.

...and you have to pay for the costs of auditioning them week after week.

It's a neat twist because this time you're criticising me for not saying something which I actually said, rather than for saying something I actually didn't.

I'm sorry you view an explaintation as critisism.

 

[kimc]

Sorry to barge in into this fascinating discussion that I really don't have the patience of reading all the way through, but Anwar, I really must ask, do you have any arguments based on reality, or does your every "argument" of yours consist of a hypothetical situation you made up?

Keep it about the posts and not the posters or this thread will be shut down and warnings will be given out. Yes, I'm picking on the newbie but this applies to ALL of you.

 

[david g]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I really tried to like DS9. I watched quite a bit of it. Ultimately, I found the characters uninteresting or downright repellent. I will certainly concede that DS9 was more "consistent" than VOY, and had better plotted seasons overall. But that doesnt make it a better show, though in my experience Niners use those good qualities as irrefutable evidence that it does. VOY moves me and engrosses me to this day because I simply love the characters and the actors. And I will passionately make a case for the sheer brilliance of many, many of its episodes.

No other Trek show has ever come closer to capturing the spirit of my beloved TOS than VOY has, which is why they are the Trek shows I love most. Both of them have heart, somehow, in a way the other series simply dont, imo.

 

[Smiley]

That is very respectfully stated, David. Most critical posts that I see on these boards tend to be similar to yours, just substituting different series and attributes. It's a perfectly acceptable form of expression, and it does not belittle those who think otherwise.

I really have not seen the attitudes that are discussed on Page 1 of this thread in evidence to a significant degree on TrekBBS. If I do see someone needlessly bash another show, I tend to adjust my opinion of their post's merit downwards and move on.

I consider myself a rational Niner who can enjoy all the series and movies that Trek has to offer to differing degrees. I don't consider DS9 to be perfect or the others to be trash, and there are missed opportunities in all of the shows (and pretty much all of TV, for that matter).

 

[DevilEyes]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I really tried to like DS9. I watched quite a bit of it. Ultimately, I found the characters uninteresting or downright repellent. I will certainly concede that DS9 was more "consistent" than VOY, and had better plotted seasons overall. But that doesnt make it a better show, though in my experience Niners use those good qualities as irrefutable evidence that it does. VOY moves me and engrosses me to this day because I simply love the characters and the actors. And I will passionately make a case for the sheer brilliance of many, many of its episodes.

No other Trek show has ever come closer to capturing the spirit of my beloved TOS than VOY has, which is why they are the Trek shows I love most. Both of them have heart, somehow, in a way the other series simply dont, imo.

To each their own. I loved almost every major character and actor on DS9 - with some it was love at first sight (Kira, Garak, Odo...) but even those I did not appreciate at first grew on me or developed wonderfully in later seasons (Jadzia, Bashir). I was attached to all those characters, main and recurring ones, whether I love them, hated them, or both at the same time. On Voyager, I am only mildly interested in watching the episodes, because the characters are mostly 'meh'. Neelix is annoying, I somewhat like Tuvok and the Doctor, but most of them are neither here nor there. And I don't love any of them.

 

[Thor Damar]

^^Give me a break, they had no intentions of killing off another cast member on DS9 if Ferrell didn't leave. So his point still stands that nobody from the main cast would have died during a war.

Kes was part of the primary cast and they didn't kill her off, she just evolved and left................alive!

Damar was envious of Ziyal from day one. He was looking for any excuse to get her out of the picture. Calling her a traitor was just the excuse he needed. Ziyal didn't die due to war, she was murdered due to Damar's jealousy.

Where did you get that unproven accusation about Damar from?

The whole point of Damar murdering Ziyal was that he followed the poisonous legacy of the ruling ideology in the Union to it's bitter conclusion which started Damar down the road to self destruction IMO, a much better storyline than some bloody soap opera angst fest

 

[Anwar]

In your opinion of course, it's just as valid to read a much more shallow reasoning for his actions into it that work just as well.