DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence - Part 9,782

[TheGodBen]

Compare the ratings from TNG to DS9, both are syndicated. DS9 suffered a MEGA drop as it went on. To Paramount, that DS9 was not gaining the same ratings as TNG meant it was losing the money they had hoped it would earn.

This is true, I am sure that Paramount hoped that DS9 would have kept its ratings at TNG's level, but that is a far cry from claiming that DS9 was losing Paramount money. It wasn't printing money like TNG was, but it was earning a healthy profit which is why they kept producing it for seven years, they even went to the trouble of renegotiating contracts for season 7 because they knew it was going to be a profitable endeavour.

DS9 wiki

According to a press release through Newswire on April 7, 1999, [DS9] was the #1 syndicated show in the United States for adults 18-49 and 25-54.

Like it or not, DS9 was a successful and profitable show. It never reached TNG's level, but TNG was something special.

VOY was then made and put on a small network Paramount had acquired, a netowork not a lot of people had.

I don't have figures for the time that Voyager was on the air, but in 2003 UPN was available to 86% of households in the US.

They couldn't get rid of Wang due to the TIME magazine thing he was in, and the possible racist backfire of letting the asian of the show go. Same with Beltran and his ethnicity. They were stuck with them.

Not really, the Time magazine thing was a choice the producers made and a bad one at that. As for the racist thing, they weren't going to be fired for racist reasons they would be fired because their characters weren't going anywhere and many people didn't like their acting. I seriously think that Beltran and Wang would have been more adult than to play the race card, especially since I've seen interviews before where Beltran said he wanted to be let go but the producers wouldn't allow it.

I'm sorry you view an explaintation as critisism.

I'm constantly being criticised so I've developed something of a trench mentality.

 

[Thestral]

^^Give me a break, they had no intentions of killing off another cast member on DS9 if Ferrell didn't leave. So his point still stands that nobody from the main cast would have died during a war.

Prove it. Or, maybe you can give me this year's Superbowl winner, and the final score?

Kes was part of the primary cast and they didn't kill her off, she just evolved and left................alive!

Yes, yes she did. And I think that was an acceptable, if disappointing decision since Kes was my favorite VOY character. But Harry Kim, had the original plan progressed, would not have evolved and left, he would have died. D-E-D dead.

Damar was envious of Ziyal from day one. He was looking for any excuse to get her out of the picture. Calling her a traitor was just the excuse he needed. Ziyal didn't die due to war, she was murdered due to Damar's jealousy.

Like Thor Damar said, where do you get this from? I mean, at all? Show me dialogue that indicates Damar is murderously jealous of Ziyal.

In your opinion of course, it's just as valid to read a much more shallow reasoning for his actions into it that work just as well.

Sure, if you can give a reasoned argument for why this shallow reasoning works. Care to demonstrate Damr's murderous jealousy of Ziyal?


And I'm still waiting to be shown how the White Rose executions, Operation Valkyrie, and King Leonidas at Thermopylae were not results of war...

DS9 has a devoted fandom. Hell, Stargate Atlantis has a devoted fandom - that some folks adore a television series proves nothing about its quality.

Agreed, which is why IDIC is a good watchword for these forums.

Vorik came back due to Nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

And what's your explanation for Naomi and Samantha Wildman, or Icheb?

I already gave the proof: That DS9's ratings were SO far below what TNG's had been shows it was losing money.

I think the word you're looking for here is "underperforming."

Voyager was on a small network not everyone got, and that DS9's rating weren't even THAT much better than VOY even though it was syndicated means that it was losing money.

How? Demonstrate how DS9 was losing money. Fullstop. I'm not interested in how it did compared to Voyager. If Paramount was losing money to DS9, Voyager and it's ratings don't even factor into this.

Compare the ratings from TNG to DS9, both are syndicated. DS9 suffered a MEGA drop as it went on. To Paramount, that DS9 was not gaining the same ratings as TNG meant it was losing the money they had hoped it would earn.

No. It meant it was not making as much money as Paramount had hoped it would earn. Money was not being lost, it was underperforming. There is a difference here. If DS9 (or Voyager) had actually been losing money, the budget would have been slashed.

That a small network show could compete with a syndicated one is more proof that DS9 was losing money compared to the standard set by TNG.

That doesn't even make logical sense. The first half of your statement doesn't line up with the second half. And if the standard we're using is TNG, then both shows were "losing money compared to the standard set by TNG." But again, the word you're looking for is underperforming, which is not the same as losing money. In which case, neither show can claim "high ground" here. Which is fine, because there's no reason they should be in conflict.

SNIP respectful statement of preferring VOY to DS9.

No other Trek show has ever come closer to capturing the spirit of my beloved TOS than VOY has, which is why they are the Trek shows I love most. Both of them have heart, somehow, in a way the other series simply dont, imo.

To each their own, and I'm glad you deeply enjoy it.

 

[Anwar]

I'm not in the mood to quote both of you, so...

It doesn't matter what the 2003 availability of UPN was, only when VOY was on.

Go watch Damar when Ziyal was around, even as far back as "Return to Grace". If you want to justify jealousy, you can just chalk it up to Cardassian xenophobia and her being a hybrid.

As for those war executions, I don't see why you brought them up.

Naomi was a child actress, less money. Samantha stopped showing up, so no more money for her. Same for Icheb.

DS9 wasn't making the same money as TNG, thus to Paramount DS9 was not making the money they wanted. Making less money. And it was harder to rerun in syndication, thus not making money that way either unlike TNG and VOY.

I agree, all Trek shows have been "underperforming" since TNG since they couldn't match the ratings.

 

[exodus]

^^Give me a break, they had no intentions of killing off another cast member on DS9 if Ferrell didn't leave. So his point still stands that nobody from the main cast would have died during a war.

Prove it. Or, maybe you can give me this year's Superbowl winner, and the final score?

Kes was part of the primary cast and they didn't kill her off, she just evolved and left................alive!

Yes, yes she did. And I think that was an acceptable, if disappointing decision since Kes was my favorite VOY character. But Harry Kim, had the original plan progressed, would not have evolved and left, he would have died. D-E-D dead.

To address the question: all the other cast members had already signed the contract to return for one more season, Ferrell didn't thus the characters death was written into the story before the end of the s6.

As for Harry leaving by dying, I return your question-Prove it.

Damar's jealousy and rage over Ziyal taking all of Dukat's attention goes back as far as "Return To Grace". Before the war.

GodBen, sorry you took it as criticism but that wasn't my intent.
Hopefully we can have better relations in the future.

 

[TheGodBen]

Okay, but if we go out to dinner we're paying for our own meals, I'm not going to have you ordering something expensive and expecting me to pay for half of it.

 

[Anwar]

You better show up on time, I hate tardiness.

 

[Thestral]

Go watch Damar when Ziyal was around, even as far back as "Return to Grace". If you want to justify jealousy, you can just chalk it up to Cardassian xenophobia and her being a hybrid.

Damar's jealousy and rage over Ziyal taking all of Dukat's attention goes back as far as "Return To Grace". Before the war.

I see a by-the-books soldier in "Return to Grace" who isn't personally jealous, but somewhat racist and disturbed for his mentor. By the time of SoA, there's no indication he harbors any ill will towards Ziyal aside from exasperation at (what he saw as) her naivite. If he was really jealous and full of rage, why would he consumed with guilt and having trouble sleeping over his murder of Ziyal?

As for those war executions, I don't see why you brought them up.

Because they're directly comparable to what happened to Ziyal (the White Rose executions); Operation Valkyrie is directly comparable to Worf's move against Dukat, and the Spartans' stand at Thermopylae is directly comparable to Kor's stand against the Jem'Hadar fleet.

DS9 wasn't making the same money as TNG, thus to Paramount DS9 was not making the money they wanted. Making less money. And it was harder to rerun in syndication, thus not making money that way either unlike TNG and VOY.

I agree, all Trek shows have been "underperforming" since TNG since they couldn't match the ratings.

I've never heard any indication that DS9 was harder to rerun in syndication than VOY or TNG, though I'd be curious for you to point me to where that can be found.

I think it's more a case that TNG was just something very special, coming as it did at that time in TV history. The 90s fracture of the market and decline of syndication meant things would never be so good again. Sadly.

To address the question: all the other cast members had already signed the contract to return for one more season, Ferrell didn't thus the characters death was written into the story before the end of the s6.

Wait, what? How does this affect whether or not DS9 would or wouldn't have killed a main cast member if Farrell had in fact returned? If the contract dispute hadn't come up, who knows?

Besides, the character could very easily have been written off the show in a way other than death. Heroic action in a major battle, for example, and Starfleet Command promotes her to captaincy of a starship assigned to another front of the War. Or first officer on a major starship. Much as Kes leaving wasn't a death of the character, but an evolution to new opportunities.

As for Harry leaving by dying, I return your question-Prove it.

You know what, I apologize. I'd heard that story here, somewhere, and had heard it reinforced several times. But after doing some digging, I can't find anything concrete that indicates this to be true. Closest I can find is this, a BB post from the Sci-Fi Fantasy Chronicles UK in 2002, and the poster in that thread doesn't provide any evidence to back that up. I still sorta buy it, but you're right, I can't prove it. Mea culpa.

 

[david g]

Thanks, Smiley, I appreciate your own respectful response. I can certainly understand why someone loves DS9. If it was a show that you liked, it repaid you immensely with its intelligence and depth. I just wish I had actually liked it!

 

[Gotham Central]

I'm sorry but I find it incredibly humorous that Anwar says that the reason that Voyager did not have recurring characters was because it was too expensive . He honestly says that despite the fact that we know it clearly was not THAT expensive since in the studio next door DS9 was doing it week after week (including paying an Academy Award winning actress). Not only did DS9 manage to have an expansive cast, it did so with fewer resources since Berman and Paramount started betting the farm on Voyager and UPN.

Additionally, not only was the cast expansive, they ALL of the characters we covered in depth. Its a damn shame that a secondary character like Nog or Garak changed more and got more coverage than Harry Kim or Chakotay (especially since those two were likely getting paide alot more to do alot less). Hell Morn got more attention that half of the Voyager cast. Its a damn shame that we learned more about a character that never spoke than we did of main cast members on Voyager. That is a sign of quality writing. Not to mention that DS9 was well recieved by critics. Critical acclaim is definately one measure of quality.

See, what's important to understand is that the DS9 producers realized early on that it is better to use their resouces on good writing and developing characters than it does to blow the budget on more CGI. Thus when episodes like "A Call to Arms" or The Way of the Warrior" come around the big action sequences not only end up being special treats but they always serve a purpose.

Voyager blew its money on VFX. The stories were usually more of an afterthought. A way to justify having battle sequences. That also explains why the characters were written so inconsistently...they were changed to suit the plot. So one minute Janeway is all by the book, and another she's saying that the rules are less important when you're alone 70,000 ly from Starfleet Command.

One more point about a show losing money. DS9 did not lose Paramount money (though Voyager was apparently skating a thiing line toward the end of its run). You know what happens to shows that prove to be more of a financial drain than benefit....they get canceled. See Enterprise for a prime example. Paramount was not making these shows purely for our viewing pleasure, they did it to make money. They were not going to continue to make these shows if they were in anyway shape or form losing money. Again a prime example of this was Enterprise. The show was not popular with anyone (critics or Trek fans alike) and served as the last gasp of UPN.

 

[Anwar]

Fewer resources? Unlikely, the budget was never changed and being syndicated actually gave them MORE control and freedom than the VOY staff had on their own show. DS9 had the advantage. Despite the dropping viewers throughout its' run.

Character development? Bare bones in most cases of the secondary chars, and that's just because they were so 1-D to begin with the minimal development would have the illusion of "fleshing them out". Harry and Chakotay weren't developed? What do you consider developed? Would you say Harry was better developed if he got promoted throughout the show? That wouldn't change anything but simply give off an illusion.

VOY was explicitly ordered not to do arc stories and to focus on the episodic, because it was cheaper and wouldn't lose viewers like serialization does. VOY was made to save money, which is why the FX weren't used to change the ship CGI model: it would've cost too much to do that every few episodes. Same for not showing internal damage, too much money to constantly change the sets.

You complain about character inconsistency, yet DS9 did that just as much or just had contrived tack-ons for the hell of it like Bashir's augmentation, Odo and Kira just bushing around for 7 years, Sisko's "romance", and whatever the heck they wasted on the Ferengi.

DS9 wasn't making the same money as TNG, that's all that counted at the time. To be fair none of the shows could match that, but network shows aren't expected to be able to match that. ENT was cancelled also due to a changeover in UPN management that was hostile to Science Fiction.

 

[Gotham Central]

Fewer resources? Unlikely, the budget was never changed and being syndicated actually gave them MORE control and freedom than the VOY staff had on their own show. DS9 had the advantage. Despite the dropping viewers throughout its' run.

Character development? Bare bones in most cases of the secondary chars, and that's just because they were so 1-D to begin with the minimal development would have the illusion of "fleshing them out". Harry and Chakotay weren't developed? What do you consider developed? Would you say Harry was better developed if he got promoted throughout the show? That wouldn't change anything but simply give off an illusion.

VOY was explicitly ordered not to do arc stories and to focus on the episodic, because it was cheaper and wouldn't lose viewers like serialization does. VOY was made to save money, which is why the FX weren't used to change the ship CGI model: it would've cost too much to do that every few episodes. Same for not showing internal damage, too much money to constantly change the sets.

You complain about character inconsistency, yet DS9 did that just as much or just had contrived tack-ons for the hell of it like Bashir's augmentation, Odo and Kira just bushing around for 7 years, Sisko's "romance", and whatever the heck they wasted on the Ferengi.

DS9 wasn't making the same money as TNG, that's all that counted at the time. To be fair none of the shows could match that, but network shows aren't expected to be able to match that. ENT was cancelled also due to a changeover in UPN management that was hostile to Science Fiction.

You keep talking about what the show was "forced" to do as if that is some kind of rational justification. No one is asking WHY was Voyager weaker...the issue is that it was weaker. Whether you attribute that weakness to UPN (which as i said before is copout and nowhere near the whole truth) or to the producers the end result is the same.

You also seem to conflate more resources with more control when they are NOT the same issue. JMS had more control over the direction of B5 than the folks on any star trek series, yet he had no where near the same level of resources available to him. By virtue of the show propping up UPN, Voyager was given more resources to work with while DS9 was largely left to its own devices. Indeed, as JMS would argue, have fewer resources means that you have to be more imaginative with what you have. You work harder to ensure that the stories are good because you can't cover them up with expensive effects.

 

[DevilEyes]

Character development? Bare bones in most cases of the secondary chars, and that's just because they were so 1-D to begin with the minimal development would have the illusion of "fleshing them out".

You are talking of Voyager characters, right?

You complain about character inconsistency, yet DS9 did that just as much or just had contrived tack-ons for the hell of it like Bashir's augmentation

Contrived or not, it made him more complex (up to that point, he had been the least developed character on DS9... which meant that he was still better developed than most characters on VOY, but nevermind...) and gave him a storyline with the Jack Pack (which I liked), as well as brought up an interesting social issue of genetic augmentation and its status in the Federation. So I don' see how it was "just for the hell of it".

Odo and Kira just bushing around for 7 years

Bushing around? What does that even mean? Does it mean that you think it was obvious from day one they would get together, and they just stalled it for no reason? As far as I, and many other people, were concerned, it was not obvious at all. Kira and Odo were hardly Riker and Troi, or even Picard and Crusher. There were no romantic implications visible onscreen at all in the beginning (and offscreen, it was not even planned by the writers, until Auberjonois started playing it this way). And for more than 5 seasons, it was no obvious at all if Kira would return his feelings. Heck, I got spoiled on it halfway through the show, and it still didn't look obvious onscreen. (Neither was it certain that it would turn out that way, from what I've heard.)

Sisko's "romance",

What's wrong with it? And why the quotation marks?

 

[Anwar]

I was talking about the DS9 ones, actually.

What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

I could tell what was happening with Odo and Kira after a while in the 1st season, it just annoyed me that they wasted time on it for 7 years. The only surprise was that he went back to the Link and even that wasn't too surprising.

Sisko and Kasidy, just boring and bland. So much that they gave her a Maquis contrived connection and dropped it just as fast.

 

[exodus]

Go watch Damar when Ziyal was around, even as far back as "Return to Grace". If you want to justify jealousy, you can just chalk it up to Cardassian xenophobia and her being a hybrid.

Damar's jealousy and rage over Ziyal taking all of Dukat's attention goes back as far as "Return To Grace". Before the war.

I see a by-the-books soldier in "Return to Grace" who isn't personally jealous, but somewhat racist and disturbed for his mentor. By the time of SoA, there's no indication he harbors any ill will towards Ziyal aside from exasperation at (what he saw as) her naivite. If he was really jealous and full of rage, why would he consumed with guilt and having trouble sleeping over his murder of Ziyal?

Are we watching the same show?

The word you're looking for is called "remorse".
It's one thing to hate somebody, it's another to take a life.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I was talking about the DS9 ones, actually. What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

How do you know?

 

[DevilEyes]

What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

Oh, here we go again. How would you know that?!?!?! You have a crystal ball or something? Otherwise, it is really strange that you still haven't learned that "if this and this happened on Voyager, people would..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ARGUMENT? It is not logical. It has no place in a discussion in which you are trying to prove a point. It means absolutely nothing. Get it?

I could tell what was happening with Odo and Kira after a while in the 1st season, it just annoyed me that they wasted time on it for 7 years.

Well, more power to you. You are so perceptive that you figured it out before even the writers had any idea about it. Awesome.

Not to mention how amazingly exciting it would have been to watch 7 seasons of Odo the happy, content shapeshifter and a relaxed Kira as a resident happy couple. I can see it... Trek's Dharma and Greg? Maybe they could have adopted a few orphans and made it into a big happy family? How I would have loved to watch that...

 

[exodus]

What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

Oh, here we go again. How would you know that?!?!?! You have a crystal ball or something? Otherwise, it is really strange that you still haven't learned that "if this and this happened on Voyager, people would..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ARGUMENT? It is not logical. It has no place in a discussion in which you are trying to prove a point. It means absolutely nothing. Get it?

I don't know, he's given us 8 pages of discussion/ argument so far.

More power to ya, Anwar.

 

[DevilEyes]

What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

Oh, here we go again. How would you know that?!?!?! You have a crystal ball or something? Otherwise, it is really strange that you still haven't learned that "if this and this happened on Voyager, people would..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ARGUMENT? It is not logical. It has no place in a discussion in which you are trying to prove a point. It means absolutely nothing. Get it?

I don't know, he's given us 8 pages of discussion/ argument so far.

More power to ya, Anwar.

Yes, 8 pages of repeating the same illogical non-argument is better than posting it once and learning better... sure, whatever.

 

[exodus]

Oh, here we go again. How would you know that?!?!?! You have a crystal ball or something? Otherwise, it is really strange that you still haven't learned that "if this and this happened on Voyager, people would..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ARGUMENT? It is not logical. It has no place in a discussion in which you are trying to prove a point. It means absolutely nothing. Get it?

I don't know, he's given us 8 pages of discussion/ argument so far.

More power to ya, Anwar.

Yes, 8 pages of repeating the same illogical non-argument is better than posting it once and learning better... sure, whatever.

The site is meant for discussion & debate and he's provided just that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, he's still provided something to discuss.

 

[Deckerd]

In your opinion of course, it's just as valid to read a much more shallow reasoning for his actions into it that work just as well.

I only started to like Damar after he got rid of Ziyal, who was so saccharine she gave me a headache.