Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[Lord Garth]

I'm glad Garak (or Cardassians in general) got mentioned, because it got me thinking. I was too young when Deep Space Nine aired, but were people getting into such heated debates about Gul Dukat and the Cardassians as well? If I wanted to describe anyone as Space Hitler, it would be Dukat. And the Cardassians themselves were shown on screen to do many of the same things the Nazis did, and for much of the same reasons, even, and they were shown in a gritty, realistic fashion instead of the Terrans' overblown, cartoonish sociopathy. I just find it so weird that Dukat still had so many fans that the writers eventually had to reduce him to a cartoonish, insane, omnicidal cult leader because he just had too much charisma for a lot of fans to really be able to hate him.

It wasn't anywhere near as bad as this. Largely because too many people were swept up by him. So Dukat and Garak get a pass, it seems, and Georgiou doesn't. There's a lot to unpackage there but I don't think it would do any good at this stage to unpack any of it. So I won't.

Also, because the Internet is worse than it used to be. Anyone can act or say however they want because "Internet!" As if they can't control themselves because "It's the Internet!" Well, everyone is online now and "The Internet!" is part of our daily lives. When DS9 was on, there was a separation. There was the Internet and Real Life. Now, through social media, business, entertainment consumption, and everything else we do online these days, that separation is gone. Maybe we shouldn't act any differently online than we do in real life since the lines have now blurred away completely. So, while our use of the Internet has changed, how people act online hasn't caught up with it yet, and has actually gotten worse. "I've always acted this way online so I'll keep acting this way online!" Even though what it means to be "online" itself is no longer the same. There's a disconnect.

 

[mos6507]

Why would CBS want to stop developing a show starring international star Michelle Yeoh?

Because maybe she's going to be tied up with the Avatar sequels?

 

[Lord Garth]

One more thing. My grandfather, on my mother's side, fought in World War II. A lot of us have parents or grandparents who fought in WWII. They fought Hitler. They fought Hirohito. They fought the Axis Powers. To casually reference Hitler just to win an Internet debate over a fictional character is an insult. They fought, and died, fighting against an enemy who was real. We still honor those who died every Memorial Day.

Godwin's Law exists for a reason. Not just to keep arguments from getting too out of control but so we don't cheapen what people actually went through, which is still in the living memory of some and still an experience that members of our own families who we know or remember had to endure.

A movie that came out a dozen years afterwards was a John Wayne movie, Conqueror (1956), where he played Ghengis Khan. My grandparents aren't around to ask anymore, and neither is my mother, but I have a feeling they didn't compare John Wayne's character to Hitler, even though they were familiar with the historical figure he played and what the real Ghengis Khan was. If the Greatest Generation could separate John Wayne's character of Ghengis Khan in some movie from Hitler, then we, today, can separate Michelle Yeoh's character of Phillipa Goergiou in some TV show from him.

 

[EnderAKH]

Jesus, people act like this has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. Scorpius on Farscape, Jaime Lannister on Game of Thrones, Spike on Buffy, Regina the Evil Queen on Once Upon A Time, Klaus on the Vampire Diaries, Missy on Doctor Who, Sylar on Heroes, T-Bag on Prison Break. Hell the entire series of Breaking Bad made the hero a Meth dealer. Maybe those shows aren't the types of shows you watch but to clutch your pearls and proclaim indignantly "What were they thinking?" seems pretty short sighted.

 

[Longinus]

@Lord Garth I really don't appreciate your attempts to censor the discussion or imply that people who point out the obvious nazi parallels are somehow being disrespectful. The Terran Empire was always a nazi analogue; we are not inventing that. And yes, playing that for laughs is distasteful, but that's what the writers are doing.

 

[BillJ]

I think, after seventy five years, people are beginning to forget just how bad the Nazi’s were/are and don’t understand why it is a bad look for a franchise like Star Trek to include one as a good guy.

But hey, none of it matters as long as they get Michelle Yeoh on Star Trek.

 

[Vger23]

For what it's worth, I'm in the camp of "give me something new and different from Star Trek," otherwise what's the point of having a new series or movie? Star Trek can be so many different things. Its diversity is what makes it great in my eyes... not its optimism, production designs, setting, vision, etc.

Trek got stale and I lost almost all interest in the late 90's when everything just looked, felt, and sounded the same with the same themes, behaviors, and conclusions we've seen hundreds of times before. Orville is right there with 90's Trek, and as such I haven't been compelled to watch an episode for a month now. Self-interest here, but I'm glad that the Kelvin movies and DSC offered something very different. I'm looking forward to Kurtzman's approach that each series be something unique.

I don't see where one precludes the other?

When I go to watch "Star Trek", I go in expecting certain things. It goes with the territory of using the Star Trek moniker. If it isn't "Star Trek" then I'm likely to be disappointed, regardless of the quality. Much like if I order a cheeseburger and get a filet o' fish in my McDonald's bag. The filet o' fish may be great, but it isn't the cheeseburger I ordered.

Actually, your analogy works much better to say Star Trek as a franchise IS McDonald's. The different series are your choices of Big Macs, Filet-O-Fish, etc. in this new business model.

If people looked at it that way, they'd be a lot more in-perspective on the topic I think.

 

[XCV330]

We watched her execute her inner circle,

Reasonable under the circumstances. They would have used the knowledge she'd obtained to her detriment.

destroy the Rebel compound,

she wasn't going to wait around for them to commit mass suicide, or more importantly, destroy her empire. They ARE rebels, after all.

eat sapient beings.

You got me, there. I guess Kelpians are just so darned tasty and nutritious you can't stop after one bite

We know she took part in the genocide of the Talosians.

She thinks she did, anyway.

I think people are trying to twist who she is to make the idea of the show more palatable.

I can't speak for most people, but I'm well aware she's a very dangerous antagonist, and not the sort of person I want to invite to go fishing with me on Sunday. I don't think she's getting a redemption arc so much as an adaptation arc, and I find that pretty interesting.

Spoiler

That look of pure joy she had watching Leland suffer as he slowly died, I liked that. She's still exactly who she is, just channeled into living in this new circumstance. Still, she IS a changed person now, and I think the loss of Burnham will affect her.

 

[SJGardner]

To be honest, it never occurred for me to tie the Terran Empire into the Third Reich at any point when I watched. The Terran Empire, the Alliance, Georgiou, Intendant Kira, Gul Garak McBackstabber or Regent Worf all have always been just so cartoonishly overblown, so exaggerated and over-the-top that I just never made any real-world connections to them. The Mirror Universe never seemed to have any realistic basis, it was more like a twisted, evil place where everything was turned on its head. And even DS9 realized this, as by The Emperor's New Cloak, the entire universe seemed to operate on Saturday morning cartoon logic. But even when it wasn't played for laughs, it was just a crazy, twisted, evil place for me without any deeper meanings.

 

[Alan Roi]

Because maybe she's going to be tied up with the Avatar sequels?

Oh please. She made 4 films and 2 series while between 2015-2016. Back in Hon Kong she made up to 6 films a year. I don't think playing being a character in Avatar is going to tie her up. She'll probably be motion captured or have a minor part.

 

[Alan Roi]

To be honest, it never occurred for me to tie the Terran Empire into the Third Reich at any point when I watched. The Terran Empire, the Alliance, Georgiou, Intendant Kira, Gul Garak McBackstabber or Regent Worf all have always been just so cartoonishly overblown, so exaggerated and over-the-top that I just never made any real-world connections to them. The Mirror Universe never seemed to have any realistic basis, it was more like a twisted, evil place where everything was turned on its head. And even DS9 realized this, as by The Emperor's New Cloak, the entire universe seemed to operate on Saturday morning cartoon logic. But even when it wasn't played for laughs, it was just a crazy, twisted, evil place for me without any deeper meanings.

Hence why I've come to interpret it as not a "real" place but a MMORPG for higher beings to get their rocks off.

 

[Alan Roi]

I think, after seventy five years, people are beginning to forget just how bad the Nazi’s were/are and don’t understand why it is a bad look for a franchise like Star Trek to include one as a good guy.

But hey, none of it matters as long as they get Michelle Yeoh on Star Trek.

This is the franchise who forgot how bad the Klingons were, how bad the Borg were, how bad the Cardassians were once they became victims of the Dominion and how bad anything was last episode. Hell, even in the 23rd Century, as was pointed out in the TOS episode Patterns of Force, even prominent historians in the Federation were capable of forgetting how bad such things were. As I see it, the only people pushing the Nazi angle are people who appear to be committed to to stamping Nazi label on things even though doing so is a ridiculously simplistic talking point, as it appears to be the thing to do when on TV chat shows and the internet.

 

[SJGardner]

Hence why I've come to interpret it as not a "real" place but a MMORPG for higher beings to get their rocks off.

Spock was a low-level player who exploited a game mechanic to kill off another player's character and conquer his empire (after practicing that game mechanic for years, including trying it out on the guy he learned it from - that's how Mirror Kirk died), and the Alliance was two opportunistic other players (probably Trelane and that friend his parents never let him meet) taking opportunity of his lacking experience, ganging up on him and taking over his empire.

 

[Noname Given]

Even that is pretty thin. Basic outline for starships, everyone from a particular race all dress alike.

The "every race dresses alike..." was only true for the Berman TNG/ENT era (All Vulcans/Romulans had "Moe" type bowl cuts, etc.) If you go back and watch TOS, no Spock's hairstyle was NOT the ;standard for every Vulcan, nor Romulan. IN TOS Civilians wore different clothes style too. IF they ran into a species military, yes, they all wore the same uniform style.

As for the "basic outline for Starships" - Discovery has done the most to 'break the mold' for starship design and has gotten a lot of flack for it from fans, so they've started to return to the original Klingon and Starfleet forms more since Season 1,

 

[Alan Roi]

@Lord Garth I really don't appreciate your attempts to censor the discussion or imply that people who point out the obvious nazi parallels are somehow being disrespectful. The Terran Empire was always a nazi analogue; we are not inventing that. And yes, playing that for laughs is distasteful, but that's what the writers are doing.

It wasn't ever a Nazi analogue. It was an amalgamation of a whole lot of things but mostly a somewhat campy view of evil which ties in everything that is considered immoral, including the idea of women being sexually aggressive is immoral some reason as a major aspect. The only time I've seen it described as such has been with Discovery discussions, and I take that as a sign of internet behavior where Gpdwin's Law now reigns supreme.

I might also point out that Klingons also often have been shown to have characteristics similar to Mirror Universe Terrans over the years, including having portable agonizers as seen in Mirror Mirror in Day of the Dove, not to mention having women who are seen as far more phyically sexually agressive than human female characters are ever allowed to be in the show.

 

[Noname Given]

@Lord Garth I really don't appreciate your attempts to censor the discussion or imply that people who point out the obvious nazi parallels are somehow being disrespectful. The Terran Empire was always a nazi analogue; we are not inventing that. And yes, playing that for laughs is distasteful, but that's what the writers are doing.

The Terran Empire was hardly a Nazi parallel/analogue. It's roots go far longer back into history. I always saw it as more a Roman Empire style setup (there were many eras where the Roman Empire was a Dictatorship and not a Republic), taking the WORST from the more despotic/insane despotic Roman Emperors reigns.

 

[fireproof78]

And yes, I can completely understand Lord Garth getting upset about talking this so much. And I can really emphasize, and even feel sorry for bringing it up myself again. But this is not the fans fault - the creators decided to do that. They decided to introduce a fascist overlord, model her as close as possible after real history's worst mass murderers, and then turn her into a shiny hero-figure for people to laugh with.

I really don't see her as being played for laughs, I'm not laughing nor am I regarding her as a hero figure. So, this is where my disconnect comes from. I do think Star Trek has room for characters who are capable of growing past their mistakes, and in a show that hangs on the optimism of humanity growing past its murderous past cannot get past this one character is frankly so disingenuous to the conversation it staggers my mind.

If people believe the producers are doing this then please let them know, since apparently the petitions for the Pike show somehow carry some weight. Let's stop the inflammatory language at each other and actually something about it!

Otherwise, the conversation is going in circles, becoming more personal, more inflammatory, with no empathy for either side. To the point that this place will become the echo chamber that it is so often portrayed as.

As for the "basic outline for Starships" - Discovery has done the most to 'break the mold' for starship design and has gotten a lot of flack for it from fans, so they've started to return to the original Klingon and Starfleet forms more since Season 1,

Yes. The producers have learned that they cannot change too much less they receive flak. So, it will become safe, predictable and nostalgic comfort food.

I'm sure that Star Trek will appeal.

 

[Soong-type Android]

Star Trek has room for characters who are capable of growing past their mistakes

It does seem somewhat flippant to describe being a fascist, mass murdering tyrant as being a mere "mistake" someone can grow out of.

 

[Alan Roi]

It does seem somewhat flippant to describe being a fascist, mass murdering tyrant as being a mere "mistake" someone can grow out of.

It seems some what against the whole idea of the humanism that Star Trek espouses, that many people, even those previously judged as 'bad' people can't possibly change for the better or that they never should be given the chance. I would think that people who have been drawn to the enlightened humanism of the Franchise would be the first people to stand up and say that.

 

[fireproof78]

It does seem somewhat flippant to describe being a fascist, mass murdering tyrant as being a mere "mistake" someone can grow out of.

So, that means that certain people are not allowed in to the optimistic, humanistic, future of Star Trek. Is that the message that is needed now?

I see complaints that the idea of Section 31 undermines the core concept of the Federation, that it is an optimistic place where people can have confidence in their leaders. Well, throwing Georgiou out and stating redemption is impossible is also in the same vein.

At some point in time it becomes too much. So, I guess Georgiou is just OK so long as she wasn't a main character. But, Garak, and Kor and them can join the heroes at any time, so long as they are not show leads.

Sorry, for me, the hypocricy of these arguments is too much.