Yes, but how can we make Hitler/Stalin/Nazi jokes if you bring all these facts in here!!!!!
Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?
- Thread starter Tom
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Well, I hear these fellows named Tiberius, Caligula and Nero weren't really all about sunshine and happiness either. I'll admit though, they might have not done it on the same scale as old Joe Steele and the others.Yes, but how can we make Hitler/Stalin/Nazi jokes if you bring all these facts in here!!!!!
Wait a second-are you telling me James Tiberius Kirk is named after a Roman emperor!?
That's it! TOS is not my Star Trek now!
Probably because they didn't have the technology to back them up.
"Have a big enough part of the military follow you" is the absolute exact method of succession of any authoritarian dictatorship anywhere and anytime in the history of the world.
What made the Terrans stand-ins for the Nazis (and not Romans) is their xenophobia, race-related politics, willingness to commit genocide (something the Romans didn't), and the capabilities of nuking entire civlisations (okay, that's the "stand-in" - part, not the "true" part). Also, they're now space cannibals that eat other sentient beings because they deem them as lesser lifeforms. Yikes.
The other thing to remember, is that some TOS writers (including Jerome Bixby) served/fought in World War II.
What? James Caligula Kirk? Tell me you are kidding.
(Bonus points to know where that Kirk reference comes from.
Um... Rome wiped Carthage entirey off the map and hunted Hannibal to the end of his days. When the Romans were motivated they could get Genocidal. But yeah, they preferred to 'decimate' populations. There are a hell of a lot of not-good things the Romans got up to. One of the Emperer's got mounted and stuffed by the Persians after they killed him, and likely for valid reasons.
Wait a second-are you telling me James Tiberius Kirk is named after a Roman emperor!?
That's it! TOS is not my Star Trek now!
Well, Tiberius didn't want to be Emperor. He prefered to go skinny dipping with young boys who he liked to have bite him.
Probably more like Ghengis Khan in my estimation. Both Hitler and Stalin were innovators. Georgiou had to uphold a tradition that precedes her by quite a few decades.
Can we please stop with the Hitler Comparisons? Pretty please with sugar on top?
Genghis Khan or whoever was from Rome? Okay, fine. It's far enough in the past.
But Hitler and then going out of your way to bring up "Very fine people"? Now we're getting into a point where we're not talking about the show anymore. It's loaded, politically charged, and will spark heated reactions whether that's the intention or not. And not the "Canon War" type of heated. When we're talking about Hitler, it's so much worse. And dragging Current Events into this is just BEGGING to push the topic somewhere else every time it's brought up.
I'm not kidding around when I said I seriously thought "The Hell with this" earlier today. I was inches away from leaving. I didn't post in the ENT Forum not only because I didn't like the show but also because I thought the forum was nuts. But "Canon War" type of nuts is a Hell of a lot better than "Hitler" type of nuts. It's better than dragging something as sensitive as Trump and his statement about "Very fine people" into this, especially when the poster who said that knows damn, fucking well where I stand politically and that I'm against the President. It just was NOT necessary to go there.
I post here specifically because the DSC Forum is better than the ENT Forum was before. I said to myself if it ever got to be to the old ENT Forum level, I'd leave. So far, for the year-and-a-half I've been back here, it's been mostly great. But If this is the way it's going to be, every time Georgiou is brought up from here on out, I'll take the Old ENT Forum over what the new Disco Forum and Section 31 Forum would be like any time.
Relevant Posts quoted below:
The Genghis Khan analogy is more accurate anyway, specifically because of the reasons Alan Roi said:
The Hitler stuff is bombastic and is guaranteed to get a rise. Which might even possibly be the desired result. Like anytime Hitler is brought up in any circumstance about pretty much any topic.
Genghis Khan or whoever was from Rome? Okay, fine. It's far enough in the past.
But Hitler and then going out of your way to bring up "Very fine people"? Now we're getting into a point where we're not talking about the show anymore. It's loaded, politically charged, and will spark heated reactions whether that's the intention or not. And not the "Canon War" type of heated. When we're talking about Hitler, it's so much worse. And dragging Current Events into this is just BEGGING to push the topic somewhere else every time it's brought up.
I'm not kidding around when I said I seriously thought "The Hell with this" earlier today. I was inches away from leaving. I didn't post in the ENT Forum not only because I didn't like the show but also because I thought the forum was nuts. But "Canon War" type of nuts is a Hell of a lot better than "Hitler" type of nuts. It's better than dragging something as sensitive as Trump and his statement about "Very fine people" into this, especially when the poster who said that knows damn, fucking well where I stand politically and that I'm against the President. It just was NOT necessary to go there.
I post here specifically because the DSC Forum is better than the ENT Forum was before. I said to myself if it ever got to be to the old ENT Forum level, I'd leave. So far, for the year-and-a-half I've been back here, it's been mostly great. But If this is the way it's going to be, every time Georgiou is brought up from here on out, I'll take the Old ENT Forum over what the new Disco Forum and Section 31 Forum would be like any time.
Relevant Posts quoted below:
The Genghis Khan analogy is more accurate anyway, specifically because of the reasons Alan Roi said:
The Hitler stuff is bombastic and is guaranteed to get a rise. Which might even possibly be the desired result. Like anytime Hitler is brought up in any circumstance about pretty much any topic.
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Without new episodes (and therefore new topics), I think people are just more willing to prolong this kind of stuff even more than usual, making it go on & on, well after it's run its course. But the old advice is still true: ignore it if you can.
Not when Hitler is concerned. No. This time I'm going to make a complaint. We shouldn't have to put up with this.
I appreciate your honesty here, and willingness to return. The Hitler comparison are overwrought and hyperemotional and do nothing to build the conversation.
I get that Georgiou is a hot button topic, and I get that she is not the typical Star Trek character, but if we toss her out of the airlock because she is not the typical protagonist, then I think that Garak should go with him. I think there is a need to be open towards expanding possibilities within the Star Trek world and build upon the lore of the world.
And some people wanted more Lorca, even though he was more of an extremist than Georgiou, and was trying to overthrow her because he considered her to be too merciful and soft.
In any case, I appreciate how ST relates to real-world stuff, but too often it gets used as a weapon for scoring points in political debate. I'm sure there are some forums on other sites that are well-suited to that, but this ain't one of them (thankfully).
I'm glad Garak (or Cardassians in general) got mentioned, because it got me thinking. I was too young when Deep Space Nine aired, but were people getting into such heated debates about Gul Dukat and the Cardassians as well? If I wanted to describe anyone as Space Hitler, it would be Dukat. And the Cardassians themselves were shown on screen to do many of the same things the Nazis did, and for much of the same reasons, even, and they were shown in a gritty, realistic fashion instead of the Terrans' overblown, cartoonish sociopathy. I just find it so weird that Dukat still had so many fans that the writers eventually had to reduce him to a cartoonish, insane, omnicidal cult leader because he just had too much charisma for a lot of fans to really be able to hate him.
Yes, this was actually a real, dramatic issue for the writers of DS9:
They specifically used the Cardassian occupation and Gul Dukat for Nazi-analogues and talk about war crimes and history. And they were shocked at how beloved Gul Dukat became through the sheer power of Marc Alaimo's charisma. They damn well knew what kind of monster they were writing, but wanted him to be more three-dimensional, so they gave him a lot of "good" qualities as well (like Hitler loving his pet dog so much, aawwww), and even teamed him up with the heroes from time to time. But instead of the fans feeling "conflicted" about that, Gul Dukat had straight up "fans" and admirerers. They talked in a bunch of interviews how fucked up that was (of course waaay nicer, because they knew better than to insult fans). That's one of the reason they did such a 180° on Dukat later on - to show people Jesus Christ of course he was a monster the entire time!
But you see the most important distinction in the character's reactions: Gul Dukat was as snarky and charming as Georgiou is now. But ALL the characters - from Kira to Sisko - acted in his proximity with the disgust and contempt such a monster deserves. Nobody gave him a joke-y wink from a beaming plattform.
I think that's the strength of Trek of the past, that they always were treating the characters like real-world analogues. Whereas the new writers just seem to see fictional characters in them, to shape for their will. Garak did a lot of evil stuff - he tortured people, and commited straight up murder for the greater good. But he was always portrayed with the same "admiration" real life terrorists/freedom fighters would get. There were lines he never crossed - he didn't blow up an entire planet one episode, just to be back to "snarky grey guy" for the next episode.
And yes, I can completely understand Lord Garth getting upset about talking this so much. And I can really emphasize, and even feel sorry for bringing it up myself again. But this is not the fans fault - the creators decided to do that. They decided to introduce a fascist overlord, model her as close as possible after real history's worst mass murderers, and then turn her into a shiny hero-figure for people to laugh with. That's fucked up. But it's the producers' fault. They can, like the DS9 writers back in the day, end that entire scharade with one press release "sorry, we didn't think that through, we're not doing that anymore". Otherwise, OF COURSE people will write them about, hey, maybe you shouldn't make a fucking cannibal Nazi leader the hero of your "fun" action-adventure show???
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