Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[XCV330]

1. Wernher von Braun wasn't the Führer, and didn't personally order genocide or war
2. He had actual assets in his knowledge superseeding everything the Americans had about rockets - he would be MU Stamets, NOT Georgiou
3. von Braun was under HEAVY surveillence by the Intelligence after WWII
4. No one gave him a fucking WEAPON and a list with American names and told him: "You're free to use that on them"!

1. He was a war criminal involved up to his eyeballs in genocide, slavery, and other war crimes. He may not have wanted to e, but I suspect a lot of war criminals don't wake up WANTING to be what they are. He just was never put on trial. Instead he got to help Disney in his spare time.
2: Georgiou has information from the future via Defiant and a unique perspective on Galactic relations as the Terran Empire covered
3: Anyone that deep in the missile program was.
4: Bombastic again. This did not happen in Star Trek Discovery. You must write some extremely dramatic fan fiction in your brain. Do share.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing. Logic suggests...

 

[Rahul]

1. He was a war criminal involved up to his eyeballs in genocide, slavery, and other war crimes. He may not have wanted to e, but I suspect a lot of war criminals don't wake up WANTING to be what they are. He just was never put on trial. Instead he got to help Disney in his spare time.
2: Georgiou has information from the future via Defiant and a unique perspective on Galactic relations as the Terran Empire covered
3: Anyone that deep in the missile program was.
4: Bombastic again. This did not happen in Star Trek Discovery. You must write some extremely dramatic fan fiction in your brain. Do share.


Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing. Logic suggests...

There is a fucking difference between "murder" and "failure to provide assistance".

All Germans post-WWII were responsible for the latter, some more than others (*cough Werner von Braun)

But fucking NO ONE would EVER put fucking Mengele in charge of a reseach division post WWII.

That we even have to discuss this honestly disgusts me, and makes me think we've gone way, way too far into the deep alt-right mindset where all of that is okay, and that it is already so prevalent even in fucking Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

That we even have to discuss this honestly disgusts me, and makes me think we've gone way, way too far into the deep alt-right mindset where all of that is okay, and that it is already so prevalent even in fucking Star Trek.

This mindset is not just part of the alt-right, so lets leave the politics out of this. This is an "ends justify the means" pragmatic attitude that humans have been guilty of for millennia.

The fact that we are having this conversation also disgusts me but it is necessary. Humans are capable of great evil and this needs to be discussed! We cannot laud Star Trek for offering social commentary and then flip around and get mad when it shows the darker facets of our nature.

Disgusting or not this is an appropriate conversation to have about the nature of humanity.

 

[XCV330]

There is a fucking difference between "murder" and "failure to provide assistance".

Von Braun wasn't a poor Bavarian farmboy drafted into the military. He knew what he was doing. Do keep up. We're not arguing WW2. We're discussing the fact that governments do hire people of interest for important intelligence work AFTER they've been proven to do horrible things.

All

Germans post-WWII were responsible for the latter, some more than others (*cough Werner von Braun)

That's wrong and somewhat racist.

But fucking NO ONE would EVER put fucking Mengele in charge of a reseach division post WWII.

Mengele was a quack, and he fled to Argentina where even Mossad failed to take him. He had no strategic value to either superpower or Peron would have handed him over with a bow on top and a bill.

That we even have discuss this honestly disgusts me, and makes me think we've gone way, way too far into the deep alt-right mindset where all of that es okay, and that it is already so prevalent even in fucking Star Trek.

Suggesting I am alt-right is pretty much an ad hominem attack hiding under your devoted concern for the world or whatever, and you could not be more wrong. Anyway, this is not about me, its not about you. It's about how a character from a another dimension is portrayed on a show about an imaginary future in yet another dimension.

 

[BillJ]

But fucking NO ONE would EVER put fucking Mengele in charge of a reseach division post WWII.

Well, unfortunately, we did...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus_Strughold

Following the German defeat in May, 1945, Strughold claimed to Allied authorities that, despite his influential position within the Luftwaffe Medical Service and his attendance at the October 1942 medical conference, he had no knowledge of the atrocities committed at Dachau. He was never subsequently charged with any wrongdoing by the Allies. However, a 1946 memorandum produced by the staff of the Nuremberg Trials listed Strughold as one of thirteen "persons, firms or individuals implicated" in the war crimes committed at Dachau. Also, several of the former Luftwaffe physicians associated with Strughold and the Institute for Aviation Medicine (among them Strughold's former research assistant Hermann Becker-Freyseng) were convicted of crimes against humanity in connection with the Dachau experiments at the 1947 Nuremberg Doctor's Trial. During these proceedings, Strughold contributed several affidavits for the defense on behalf of his accused colleagues.

 

[BillJ]

Von Braun wasn't a poor Bavarian farmboy drafted into the military. He knew what he was doing. Do keep up. We're not arguing WW2. We're discussing the fact that governments do hire people of interest for important intelligence work AFTER they've been proven to do horrible things.

I agree with your point, but I don't think that type of story/character has a place working for the Federation of the Star Trek universe.

 

[XCV330]

I agree with your point, but I don't think that type of story/character has a place working for the Federation of the Star Trek universe.

We both agree there. It was like letting Mudd go after he knows the secret of the greatest in the weapon in the galaxy, because some hitherto never-mentioned non-aligned weapons dealer promised to keep him at home. Just sloppy writing.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

February 2nd, 2019 in the TOS Forum



+

This said today in this forum by the same exact poster...



It's nice to see when someone is of two minds.

Speaking of realism, here we have a real-world example of embracing 2 "truths" simultaneously in a way that would make the Emperor and Section 31 proud.

 

[Rahul]

Von Braun wasn't a poor Bavarian farmboy drafted into the military. He knew what he was doing. Do keep up. We're not arguing WW2. We're discussing the fact that governments do hire people of interest for important intelligence work AFTER they've been proven to do horrible things.

That's wrong and somewhat racist.

Mengele was a quack, and he fled to Argentina where even Mossad failed to take him. He had no strategic value to either superpower or Peron would have handed him over with a bow on top and a bill.

Suggesting I am alt-right is pretty much an ad hominem attack hiding under your devoted concern for the world or whatever, and you could not be more wrong. Anyway, this is not about me, its not about you. It's about how a character from a another dimension is portrayed on a show about an imaginary future in yet another dimension.

Well, unfortunately, we did...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus_Strughold

We both agree there. It was like letting Mudd go after he knows the secret of the greatest in the weapon in the galaxy, because some hitherto never-mentioned non-aligned weapons dealer promised to keep him at home. Just sloppy writing.

There's a real difference between doing nothing against concentration camps...

... running concentration camps....

... and setting up concentration camps in the first place.


And no, this is not a "end-justify-the-means" conversation. This is a fuckin' "The Nazi's were alright-conversation".

A lot of this here is extreeeeeeme false equivalency. Again: von Braun has NOT a clean record. He's still not the Fuhrer himself. Or was ever a Nazi leader for that matter. And never was he given permission to go around and kill Americans in black-ops operations after the war.

And pointing that out is not a "personal attack".
You cannot both defend Nazis and at the same time be offended for being called out for defending Nazis.

 

[Mudd]

Compared to Westworld, The Handmaid's Tale and others, Discovery is amateur hour, and I expect the Section 31 show to be full of the same dour emptiness.

"Empty" is the word, yeah - kids in sheets jumping out of bushes yelling "Boo!"

 

[fireproof78]

No one is defending Nazis. We are exploring what humans done.

 

[Mudd]

What can I say? I couldn't resist evoking the famous coda to TMP: "The human adventure is only beginning."

That was a conundrum at the time - like "Oh, couldn't it have begun two frickin' hours ago?!"

 

[BillJ]

You cannot both defend Nazis and at the same time be offended for being called out for defending Nazis.

Who is defending Nazis? God knows I'm not. The rubbish brought over for Operation: Paperclip should've stood trial for their crimes at Nuremberg.

Von Braun and others weren't the fuhrer, but they were in charge of their own little "islands" and used cruel methods to make sure they did the job they were assigned.

 

[XCV330]

There's a real difference between doing nothing against concentration camps...

... running concentration camps....

... and setting up concentration camps in the first place.


And no, this is not a "end-justify-the-means" conversation. This is a fuckin' "The Nazi's were alright-conversation".

Nope, and unless you have the IQ of a dead salamander, you know that's not at all the conversation going on here. But you're trying to present as such for reasons I do not comprehend.

A lot of this here is extreeeeeeme false equivalency.

This from someone using up the world's reserves of italics and the letter "e" at an alarming rate. Shouldn't you stick to tardigrade tort?

Again: von Braun has NOT a clean record. He's still not the Fuhrer himself. Or was ever a Nazi leader for that matter. And never was he given permission to go around and kill Americans in black-ops operations after the war.

He committed war crimes. We don't really know what the Empress did apart from inheriting an empire, killing off her rivals, wiping out a planet of rebellion and eating Saru. Are you really that worked up?

And pointing that out is not a "personal attack".
You cannot both defend Nazis and at the same time be offended for being called out for defending Nazis.

I'll just wait for you to apologize for now calling me alt-right and a nazi defender. You know damned well what you did and it's clear for anyone to read. The reply I'd LIKE to make would be highly unsociable and get me banned. Just fill in the blanks you _____ ing _____y ____ of ____.

 

[BillJ]

He committed war crimes. We don't really know what the Empress did apart from inheriting an empire, killing off her rivals, wiping out a planet of rebellion and eating Saru. Are you really that worked up?

She also takes credit for committing genocide against the Talosians.

 

[XCV330]

She also takes credit for committing genocide against the Talosians.

True but I kind of think she wouldn't know if she succeeded or not

 

[BillJ]

True but I kind of think she wouldn't know if she succeeded or not

I think that is the point for me though. The writers have went out of their way to show and tell us what kind of monster she is, then expect us to embrace her as the lead of a Section 31 show.

I don't think I can make that leap.

 

[XCV330]

I think that is the point for me though. The writers have went out of their way to show and tell us what kind of monster she is, then expect us to embrace her as the lead of a Section 31 show.

I don't think I can make that leap.

What I would like, and I hope this factors into the show, is maybe equal time to flashbacks of Captain Georgiou on shenzou (why not, they have the sets) in her earlier years exploring and all the other stuff hinted at in Drastic Measures and Desperate Hours.

 

[fireproof78]

I think that is the point for me though. The writers have went out of their way to show and tell us what kind of monster she is, then expect us to embrace her as the lead of a Section 31 show.

I don't think I can make that leap.

I don't embrace her. I think at this point it is a morbid curiosity . Like how I felt with Garak.

 

[BillJ]

What I would like, and I hope this factors into the show, is maybe equal time to flashbacks of Captain Georgiou on shenzou (why not, they have the sets) in her earlier years exploring and all the other stuff hinted at in Drastic Measures and Desperate Hours.

That still doesn't change the thrust of the series as the former genocidal leader of an evil Empire now works for the good guys doing their dirty work.

It just doesn't set right with me, and I can't believe CBS thinks it is a good idea for a Trek series.