Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Harris

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by DevilEyes, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. saturn5

    saturn5 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

     
  2. label

    label Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Ok, help me out here..........if your saying that some lesbians dislike someone (say for instance Willow) solely because they are "curious" and not wholly committed to being a full-time/exclusive lesbian, how exactly is that not bigotry?

    Group <a> doesn't like person/group <b> because of their sexual preference...........seems like straight up bigotry from where I'm typing............it's just ironic that in this case, Group <a> experiences the same type of bigotry that they are showing group <b>............
     
  3. 3D Master

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

     
  4. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Of course, Willow would never torture a man then get bored with him, rip his skin off, and set him on fire.

    Willow, deep down inside, enjoys inflicting suffering. She enjoys holding the power of life and death over other people and exercising it at her whim. Peel back all those layers of mousy and nice and you'll find the most dangerous bitch on six continents, petty, vindictive, depraved, quick to anger, with an insatiable lust for power.

    You see peeks of her true self several times throughout the series. Her 'Will Be Done' spell, the beatdown she gives Glory, vampWillow, her relationship with Tara turning abusive, and that whole Trio business, of course.

    That word does not mean what you think it means. They're capable of rational judgment, therefore they are sapient.

    Well, you could let the police arrest them, goive them trials, and put them in prison or execute them as determined by a jury. That usually works.

    As the post-revelation Tales of the Vampires shows, there are vampires who just want to live as close to a normal life as possible. There are plenty of douchebag vamps who will kill if they think the can get away with it, sure, but there are also vampires who don't want to hurt anyone and who are glad that the days of attacking people in dark alleys are over.
    Happiness at the expense of free will kind of defeats the point of the human experience.

    Of course, when you've got Lovecraftian abominations representing a fundamental universal force that is labeled Good for convenience, that Force and its agents are naturally going to be horrifically alien to humans, and probably less agreeable than pure Evil would be.
     
  5. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Not on Buffy, where the police is clueless and utterly unequipped to deal with vampires and other supernatural threats, while authorities are shown sweeping supernatural events under the rug to hide the knowledge from the public. The only government/state involvement in containing supernatural dangers comes in form of secret projects like the Initiative.

    Which is exactly why the Slayer is needed in the first place. Of course, there is a danger of Slayers starting to act as if they are the only law (see some of the views expressed by season 3 Faith). Which is why Buffy always insists on not killing humans and leaving them to the police to deal with. It's not that she thinks that humans are inherently better or more valuable than vampires (by the time that she is discussing what should be done with Warren, she certainly doesn't believe that anymore), it's because it's not hers to deal with human criminals, it's what police are for and what they're equipped to deal with.

    Your suggestions can only start to make sense in S8 when the world at large seems to have become aware of vampires, but it stills that no legal structure has been established that could regularly deal with supernatural beings, and the public seems unaware of the extent of the threat. Vampires in Buffyverse are clearly people, but they (or the absolute majority of them) are also very depraved and dangerous people. They aren't harmless folks who are just victims of prejudice, as in some other recent vampire fiction (the idea that has been mocked in S2 "Lie to Me" and now in S8).
     
  6. saturn5

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

     
  7. 3D Master

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Which of course, more proves how she's nothing like the demon wearing her corpse, as it had no interest in power whatsoever. It just completely lived free.

    No, they are not capable of rational judgment. As Darla under the influence of the soul shows, they are not capable of rationally judging what they feel isn't love. They are so completely incapable of making that judgment and understanding what it is, that even if they are artificially made to feel it, once that artificial means is gone, they are instantly once more incapable of understanding it, not even able to remember what it exactly is they felt, let along making any judgments on it.

    Vampires are not sapient. They're like a really advanced computer program that can simulate sapience for a wide variety of events, and fool you into thinking it is, for a moment, but once you give it something it never expected, it isn't programmed to handle, it breaks down.

    Not with vampires it doesn't.

    Forget that bullshit. It isn't canon, and it's a giant pile of crap.
     
  8. The Borgified Corpse

    The Borgified Corpse Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    I don't think it's a sexual double standard so much as a narrative one. No one takes Anya's crimes seriously because the show never did. With the possible exceptions of her first couple appearances in "The Wish" & "Dopplegangland," Anya was never treated as a credible threat or mass murderer, certainly not to the degree that Angelus & Spike were. And up until Season 6, we weren't supposed to be taking the Xander/Anya romance seriously either. (They had a few serious moments prior to that, like in "The Replacement" or his speech to her at the end of "Into the Woods" but those were few and far between.) Xander/Anya just existed on a comic relief level of the show, far different from how seriously we were supposed to be invested in Buffy's choices.

    There are a few other parts of the OP that I think are being too harsh on Xander.

    In "Becoming, Part 1," I think Xander was pretty justified in saying what he did. Certainly he seemed to be the only one who took Angelus' crimes seriously. Buffy & Willow were still too caught up in the romance of it all. Ironically enough, had Angel been there at the time, I think he would have agreed with Xander.

    "Dead Man's Party" isn't a good example because EVERYONE comes off as a douchebag in that one (except for Jonathan).

    I don't think you can begrudge Xander feeling a little flattered by Dawn's crush on him in "Blood Ties" or being a little disappointed to learn that it's fading in "Crush."

    And while, ostensibly, Xander might not seem to be 100% sweetie towards Anya, his barbs toward her are far less pointed than a lot of the stuff she said about Buffy, Willow, et al.
     
  9. The Borgified Corpse

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    As for the whole Willow lesbian thing, I think they could have handled it better. As is, they just asked us to pretend that the 1st 4 seasons never happened. If they wanted to make Willow a pure lesbian, they should have at least hung a lantern on it. For example, Buffy & Willow could have had a quick exchange like this:
    Buffy: "Do you ever miss being with a guy?"
    Willow: "No. I think that was just a phase."

    But following the form of the TV shows, whichever spin-off they eventually end up going with, Spike will take over once this thread ends!:p
     
  10. RoJoHen

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Eh, I thought the Willow lesbian thing was actually handled fine, and I'm not really convinced that she's not bi. I think the important thing that Willow's character taught us is that sexual preference doesn't matter. When you find someone to love, it doesn't matter what they are. Kennedy just happened to take the opportunity to hit on Willow because she knew she was already open to being with a girl. If another guy came along that really hit it off with Willow, I bet she'd be open to that too.
     
  11. DevilEyes

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    So does that mean that Spike will get involved with Willow, but then the gay community will be outraged, and then Willow will turn him into a woman so we would know that she is still a real lesbian? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
  12. The Borgified Corpse

    The Borgified Corpse Admiral Admiral

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    Neither is anyone else. The point is that the show seems to try to convince us of this in the later seasons.

    They posessed the immunizing condition of not having speaking parts.:p

    Well, they didn't neglect to tell her that Harmony was a vampire. It just never came up in their conversations with Cordelia until "Disharmony" and by that time I guess they just assumed that she already knew.

    BTW, I wish they'd had Cordelia make some crossover appearances on Buffy. :(

    That was actually one of my favorite parts of that episode. For all the times that Xander chose Buffy over Willow, it was nice to see him side with Willow against Buffy for once.

    Some of my replies here might seem a little scattershot. I'm not totally reading the thread in order.

    Re: Xander as a romantic match for Buffy: One of the reasons why I think they'd be so right together is because Xander is the only one that knows her well enough to approach her on equal footing. Angel, Riley, & Spike were all too much in awe of Buffy to really know her. (Angel finally started to overcome that in "Sanctuary" but by that time they were long broken up.) Hell, in some ways, even Giles put her up on a pedestal. (I'm always bugged by the end of "The Gift," where Giles tries to maintain Buffy's heroic purity by secretly doing her dirty work for her and killing Ben.) Even though Xander didn't have super strength, he was able to see Buffy as a flawed human being just like everyone else. That's what enabled him to (verbally) go toe-to-toe with her in episodes like "Becoming, Part 1," "Becoming, Part 2," & "Into the Woods." It's what enabled him to be able to give her that pep talk in "The Freshman." While she may have found Angel or Spike more sexually exciting, I think Xander is the only one of the regulars that she could have forged a lasting partnership with.

    As for the Season 1 Buffy/Xander/Willow triangle not being realistic, I can tell you that's not true. I'm kinda living in a version of that right now, with me in the Willow role (except that, in my IRL version, Buffy & Xander did get together).

    Yeah. Although sometimes I wonder if Joss could have averted a whole lot of internet arguing if they never made Seasons 6 & 7.

    Re: Xander leaving Anya at the altar: I didn't have a problem with him canceling the wedding. Considering his new reservations about their relationship, it was the responsible thing to do. What bothered me about it was how he did it, putting Anya in the awkward position of telling it to their wedding guests.

    But I'm not sure if that's what everyone else is reacting to. Are you objecting to Xander canceling the wedding or to leaving Anya, Buffy, & co. to deal with the immediate aftermath.

    Re: The nature of vampires: Is a vampire the same person as the human that he once was? I'd say yes. Cogito ergo sum. "I think, therefore I am." If a vampire thinks that he is the same person, then he is, at least from a certain point of view. In a sense, are any of us the same people we used to be from one moment to the next? I would argue that a vampire is the same person that he used to be as much as any human that endured a traumatic, life changing event, perhaps a brain injury. In fact, I'd say a brain injury is an apt analogy for what happens to a person that becomes a vampire. While there are other facets to the soul that depart to an afterlife, I think nearly identical portions of all of those soul aspects are resurrected in the vampire body, minus only the conscience. It is this lack of a conscience--combined with new, vampiric predatory instincts--that enables a formerly well adjusted human to become a vicious killer. But the vampire doesn't do anything that the former human wouldn't have done under the same circumstances.

    Angel/Angelus is something of a special case. Keep in mind, when he had a soul as a human, Liam was a drunken reprobate. He's nothing like Angel, even though they ostensibly have the same soul. I think what happened there is that, Liam sans conscience (Angelus) turned out to be such a sadistic sociopath that, once the soul/conscience was restored, it caused a psychotic break that gave Angel multiple personality disorder. He had to separate the darker angels of Liam's nature to preserve his sanity.

    One description of vampires that 3DMaster has used is "pure evil." I think this is nonsense. Pure evil can only exist as an abstraction. Vampires are far too contaminated with humanity to be pure anything. There's this idea out there that, when Spike didn't have a soul, he was pure evil and therefore every action he performed had purely evil intentions. Even the good deeds he performed in Seasons 5 & 6 were done with the "evil" intention of getting into Buffy's pants. While that's not the noblest of intentions there's nothing inherently evil about it either.

    Lacking a conscience makes vampires capable of selflessness or altruism but it doesn't make them purely evil. They operate purely off of the pleasure principle, whether the pleasure comes from killing people (Angelus) or more normal human pursuits like sex (Spike) or approval from others (Harmony).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2010
  13. DevilEyes

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Wow! The Borgified Corpse is on the roll! :techman:

    I agree with you on the nature of vampires. Angel is a very interesting character to analyze and see how what he was as Liam informed what he became as vampire without a soul and then vampire with a soul. Even as a human, he was miserable because he felt he could never earn his father's approval, and his reckless hedonism didn't seem to be bringing him any happiness. As a vampire, he kept the same anger and misery and devoted himself to finding pleasure if causing suffering in most elaborate ways. When his "soul" was forced on him, and he started feeling pangs of conscience, he started denying himself pleasures and devoted himself to helping people - with the same attention and understanding that Angelus showed when finding ways of hurting people.

    Think about the way Angelus tormented Giles by arranging for him to find Jenny in the way he did. This wasn't the work of some mindless demon. This was the work of someone who knows human heart, who is quite familiar with traditional/conventional romantic gestures (roses, opera...) and who in particular has an idea of how a man in love would feel hoping to make love to the woman of his dreams - and then having those hopes crushed in the most horrible way, finding her dead. I don't know, could this be perhaps the work of... say, a guy who can only reach perfect happiness by having sex with a woman he is in love with?

    Speaking of Liam, I have a theory that one of the elements in the complicated relationship between Angel and Spike is that they both kind of see in each other what they despise in themselves as their biggest weakness - and that's what they used to be as humans. Spike tends to mock Angel's brooding sentimentality, but William was a sentimental poet, and Angel - even as Angelus - has always had a problem with Spike's recklessness and trouble-making, but the Spike persona is a lot like Liam, who was a reckless hedonistic troublemaker. Note also that William and Liam are basically the same name (in English and Irish version.)

    Which doesn't make any sense - since Buffy was dead for a significant portion of that time (some 5 months) and he had no idea that Willow was going to resurrect her. So why was he helping the Scoobies or taking care of Dawn during that time?

    It just seems like another case of people trying hard to ignore what they see on screen in order to fit their preconceptions. Someone in this thread, for instance, is a real master in this...

    I have to disagree completely. As I've pointed out in my opening post, Xander constantly puts Buffy on the pedestal, and gets judgmental and patronizing whenever she turns out not to be the "good girl" that he wants her to be. His slut-shaming in season 6 is just one of the examples (although the most infuriating example for me). Xander doesn't understand or relate to Buffy's darkness, the violence inside her and everything that has to do with her Slayer calling. If Buffy was a "normal girl", then maybe Xander or Riley could understand her, but she's not. Riley is even worse than Xander in that respect, he is a very traditional and conventional guy, which is why things could never work out between him and Buffy. He was basically Buffy's attempt at "normal life".

    You're right about Angel's feelings about Buffy. He always had a very idealized image of Buffy (and vice versa). He fell in love with Buffy before they even actually met, he was also drawn to her as the Slayer, but also as a pure, innocent girl, the anti-Darla. He says it best himself in the Angel episode "I Fall to Pieces", talking about a stalker they were investigating, and clearly projecting: "This guy is too messed up to deal with a real woman and he can't stand that. So he creates a fantasy about a girl he barely knows. But eventually even she fails him. So he has to hurt her, because when he looks at her all he sees is how useless he is, how damaged..." And I think that he always tended to be 'mysterious' with her and reluctant to tell her things about his past because he was afraid that she would reject him if she knew all about him.

    But I completely disagree about Spike. Of all the men in her life, I think that Spike is the one who knows her the best and could understand her the most (well, except for trying to figure out what her feelings for him are - which is one area where he tends to be very misguided, but Buffy herself was always extremely confused - and often in deep denial - when it comes to that particular subject). Yes, he does adore her, but he's never been blind to her faults, he's always been the one to tell her unpleasant truths to her face, he's seen her at her worst as well as her best, and known all the ugliest parts of her personality, and he still accepts and loves her the way she is. There's a reason why Spike was the only one Buffy could speak to and confide in at the most difficult periods of her life, rather than Xander or another one of her friends. She doesn't have to hold back with Spike, they can relate on a very basic level because he is in some ways her "shadow" self and openly shows many of those things that she has suppressed in herself - which includes her dark, sexual and violent side, but also the emotional openness that she has lost over the years.


    It makes perfect sense that, in season 8 comic 37, Buffy fantasizes about telling Spike "You were the guy I told things I wasn't supposed to tell anyone... You're my dark place, Spike". The phrase "dark place" is interesting because Joss Whedon likes to use it a lot in his interviews, and likes to say that this is where his storytelling comes from. Some people have interpreted it as meaning something bad when the comic appeared, but I don't think that's the case. See this interview about Dollhouse, for instance. Joss says: "The storyteller lives in a dark place, he lives in the urges that people don't want to talk about, he lives in sex and violence on some level... at the very worst, he lives in conflicts between human beings that cannot be resolved. It's not a happy place. (...) When I say dark, I don't necessarily mean painful. I mean the things that people would like to keep hidden.One of my firm beliefs and one of the things that started 'Dollhouse' was the idea that some of the things that people want to keep hidden do not necessarily need to be hidden. And one of the best things that can happen to a person is when they realize that they're not alone. If they have a certain obsession... perversion... whatever it is... that that's not a thing that makes a person terrible. That the thing that they are ashamed of, that happened to them, is something best come to light."

    In another S8 comic, Buffy has a dream that hints at exactly why it would never work between her and Xander:
    In her dream, she asks Xander into bed and kisses him... and his head falls off :lol:

    Buffy: "No, no, I can't go outside, I'm afraid of the dark!"
    Xander's head: "Buffy, you are the dark."
    Buffy: "That's what I meant."

    So, she is basically terrified of herself, which is nothing new - she spent a lot of the series trying to believe that she was another "normal" girl just doing her "job", rather than that job is something that permeates every part of her personality. And since being a Slayer is not just a "job", but an essential part of her personality, she always related to vampires much better than she could do to "normal" human men, no matter how much she tried to.

    If she is the dark, then the "dark place" is the place where she can be herself (it's not about Spike being "dark" as much as that she feels free to be "dark" with him.) Which can be either scary or comforting, depending on how you look at it - but certainly liberating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  14. 3D Master

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    There's no difference between Angel and Liam; they're the exact same guy. Seriously, going out drinking is not a personality trait, let alone a dominant one. Liam went out drinking because he's a coward. He couldn't stand up to his father, he couldn't put his spine straight and just tell his father to f off, and then simply go do what he wants to do himself. Instead, since he doesn't want to do what his father wants, and he doesn't have the guts to just leave and do his own thing, he goes to drink himself into oblivion: spineless coward.

    Allow me to quote Angel from the pilot episode of Buffy: "Huh, she actually did it." If you don't remember when and where he said it: he did so, outside the bronze looking in, when Buffy defeated "the Vessel". So, Angel stood there, expecting Buffy to die, and Mr. Immortal Vampire just watched, as not only did one mortal teenager with super powers, but another two COMPLETELY NORMAL mortal teenagers, risked their lives fighting vampires.

    Angel just watched, expecting them all to die: spineless coward.

    And then there's "Prophecy Girl". Prophecy said Buffy was going to die. What did Angel do: gave up like the spineless coward Liam is and was. Xander had to shame him into getting off of his ass; and what was Angel/Liam doing in his chair, that's right: drinking. You know, just like Liam.

    Liam and Angel are one at the same, they act the same. And the few tiny differences are only because two centuries have past, he's got a century worth of memories being a psychotic evil fuck in his mind, and another century of being the same spinelesss SOB he was in life under his belt. Which in fact, is pretty much a miracle, he really should have been a lot different.

    Hey, remember when Angel just got his soul, and after a few weeks of trying he whimpered back to Darla because he didn't know what else to do? Spineless.

    Remember when Angel attempted to destroy the demon in the hotel, and the demon's influence and the fact Angel is a monster himself had the people hang him, and then instead of killing the demon after all, just left and told the demon he could do whatever he wanted? Spineless.

    On, and on, and on. Liam and Angel: exact same spineless guy.

    In fact; talk about douchebag characters that are considered nice guys: Liam/Angel.

    Whoever said anything about mindless? Mindless equals animal, and an animal isn't evil, it's just running along a programming. To be truly evil, you need a mind. Vampires have that pure evil mind.

    Speaking of Liam, I have a theory that one of the elements in the complicated relationship between Angel and Spike is that they both kind of see in each other what they despise in themselves as their biggest weakness - and that's what they used to be as humans. Spike tends to mock Angel's brooding sentimentality, but William was a sentimental poet, and Angel - even as Angelus - has always had a problem with Spike's recklessness and trouble-making, but the Spike persona is a lot like Liam, who was a reckless hedonistic troublemaker. Note also that William and Liam are basically the same name (in English and Irish version.)

    Or maybe if he didn't do what he did, he'd get his ass dusted, or expected to be.

    Then there's that other thing, what was it again. Oh, yeah, Dawn is Buffy's magical clone. Pretty much Buffy herself. The closest thing to Buffy herself...

    Notice how the moment Buffy's back, Spike couldn't give a rat's ass about Dawn anymore.

    And I just almost threw up again. God, am I glad I quit reading that pile after about the third issue.

    Well, that sums up nicely why his writing is horrifically bad.
     
  15. Dusty Ayres

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Ya know, this whole thread, and Xander himself, reminds me of the old TV show The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis.

    What was it about, you ask? Well, it was about a young man living teenage life caught up in the goal of getting a pretty girl, Thalia Menninger (Buffy) and money but getting denied both in each episode, and being pursued by Zelda Gilroy (Willow), who he just saw as a friend (Dobie would eventually marry Zelda in the proposed series pilot/reunion movie Whatever Happened to Dobie Gillis?)! That's what the Buffy/ Xander/Willow/Cordelia thing reminded me of (except in this case, there was no Maynard G. Krebbs equivalent for Xander, although there was a Milton Armitage equivalent in Riley, Angel, and Spike!)

    Anybody who remembers this show, and who also knows about Buffy, can debate or rebut me me with a response.
     
  16. FordSVT

    FordSVT Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    I think you're misusing the idea of sapience. By your judgment, psychopaths and sociopaths aren't sapient either, just walking computers.
     
  17. The Borgified Corpse

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    I never suggested that Angel or Liam weren't deeply flawed individuals. You're right that Angel & Liam are pretty much the same person but they're not the "exact" same person. What separates them is that Angel attempts to redeem himself in a way that Liam would never have bothered with. While Liam & Angel have the same weaknesses, Angel acts on a streak of heroism that Liam hadn't discovered. I think that Liam would, at first glance, not recognize much of himself within Angel. As you say, there's centuries of life experience that separate Angel from Liam. Indeed, there's a great deal of life experience that separates Angel when he was first reensouled from Angel as we last saw him in "Not Fade Away." Like I said before, there's a question of when is anyone ever the exact same person that they used to be. Humans & vampires alike are constantly learning & changing due to their experiences. (Look at the extreme character changes of Willow, Cordelia, & Wesley on the show for further human examples.)

    Where I think we disagree is that Angelus is also the same person as Liam & Angel, merely under different circumstances. Liam & Angel both have that same potential for extreme violence, for delighting in the suffering of others. It's the presence of a conscience that prevents Liam & Angel from succumbing to those desires; desires that Angelus has no incentive to deny.
     
  18. 3D Master

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Except of course, for that annoying problem that Angel DID NOT ATTEMPT TO REDEEM HIMSELF, and did NOT act on any streak of heroism, exactly like as you said correctly, Liam wouldn't either. In fact, after wandering around for a year or so, or how long it exactly was I don't think it was ever made clear, and being too much of a spineless coward to face the world on his own, he attempted to go back to Darla and restart Angelus' murderous life, but he couldn't get himself to do it!

    Angel spent a century doing exactly nothing, then needed Whistler to give him a swift kick in the ass, and that STILL wasn't enough to get him to really stand up. It took three teenagers, one Xander Harris in particular doing it directly straight to his face, for Angel aka Liam to finally get his ass in gear.

    Angel and Liam are the same person, the same being. And that Angel in his own show is out for redemption has got nothing to do with Angel being different from Liam, but it's all to do with him haven gotten kicks to his ass, and getting shamed into finally listening to his painful ass.

    Growing over time due to experiences, does NOT make you a different person. It may make/change your character, but you are still the same person. Liam and Angel are one and the same. Angelus is the demon that took over Liam's corpse.

    Nope. The difference between Angelus and Angel is far too wide to be the same person. For one thing, they don't even have the same mannerisms, they don't walk the same, they don't talk the same. Angelus is night and day from Angel. Angelus is a pure evil caricature of what Liam once was, not the same person.

    And again, give something as horrible as Angelus a conscience, he doesn't get sweet and nice, he gets worse. A conscience isn't absolute, it doesn't always point to some absolute direction of good. You teach a child that telling the truth is wrong and lying is right, that child will feel guilty when telling the truth. Hand Angelus a conscience, and he'll feel guilty he didn't torture to death the guy just ate because he was hungry. He'll be murdering and torturing even more than before.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  19. The Borgified Corpse

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    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    Which implies that there is a separate vampire spirit that exists separate from the body. There is almost no on screen evidence to support this. Furthermore, it suggests that the separate vampire spirit preexists the body. There is zero on screen evidence to support this.

    While the corpse is being animated by something that is not human, there is nothing to suggest that there is any aspect of this new personality that is not derrived solely from the body's previous human personality.

    To express it in math equations:

    Liam - soul + super strength & predatory instincts = Angelus

    Angelus + soul = Angel

    This makes no sense. If anything, I would argue that a conscience is the exact opposite of how you describe it. Indeed, I can point to many definitions @ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conscience?&qsrc= . For example, "the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action." A conscience is an absolute arbiter of good. It's only limitations come from the imperfections in human perception to gather data about the surrounding world and the weaknesses in human character to act on it.

    The example you describe with the child has nothing to do with the conscience. It has to do with learned morality.

    Learned morality is the only morality that unsouled vampires posess. Many have described themselves as "evil." I believe that is a human word that can only be identified within the context of human morality. If you raised a colony of vampires with no human memories in a vacuum, they would lack the proper mental faculties to even conceive of the concept of "evil," much less invent a word for it.

    Furthermore, it is impossible for vampires to be pure evil because it is impossible to enact absolute evil in the real world. There are too many variables with too many complex calculations. Is it more evil to kill 10 people quickly or 5 people slowly?
     
  20. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

    ^ I just have to say "Word" to TheBorgifiedCorpse's last two posts.