Does It Get Better???

[Guy Gardener]

Spoiler: Night explains Endgame.

Doing nothing turns her off.

The opportunity to do something turns her back on again.

Kathryn is too high octane for a pedestrian mundane lifestyle of Sienfeldianism.

2 years of shows about nothing, and the captain would have vented the atmosphere.

Howard Huges was impossibly trusting towards the toilet paper he walked on between point a and point b. A few more weeks and Janeway would never have been that careless.

Admiral Janeway had 10 years of Nothing after she got home.

Ten years of meaningless paper shuffling.

No wonder she had to go back to where the fun lived.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

I watched this and Image in the sand back to back on VHS with a friend in the 90s first view and we marveled.

He said "The Voyager was better than DS9."

"Yeah I know, I don't get it either." I concurred.

But Night flavours a lot of my negative opinion on this Starship Captain.

I happened to like Image in the Sand. I thought Ezri was a much more interesting character than Jadzia ever was.

And what did you and your friend like more about Voyager as compared to DS9?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Spoiler: Night explains Endgame.

Doing nothing turns her off.

The opportunity to do something turns her back on again.

Kathryn is too high octane for a pedestrian mundane lifestyle of Sienfeldianism.

2 years of shows about nothing, and the captain would have vented the atmosphere.

Howard Huges was impossibly trusting towards the toilet paper he walked on between point a and point b. A few more weeks and Janeway would never have been that careless.

Admiral Janeway had 10 years of Nothing after she got home.

Ten years of meaningless paper shuffling.

No wonder she had to go back to where the fun lived.

So. She's an addict.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I thought Ezri was a much more interesting character than Jadzia ever was.

Tell it! Couldn't agree more.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

Anyone else wish that someone would *accidentally* push Janeway out an airlock? Maybe Kim could *accidentally* go with her. I wouldn't mind seeing Tuvok as captain and Seven as the new tactical officer. Problem solved!

EDIT: Wouldn't mind seeing Chakotay as captain either. Hell, I'd even accept Seven's leadership as captain. Anyone but Janeway.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Anyone else wish that someone would *accidentally* push Janeway out an airlock? Maybe Kim could *accidentally* go with her. I wouldn't mind seeing Tuvok as captain and Seven as the new tactical officer. Problem solved!

There's no sex in that, it would never fly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Solving pon far with a holowhore was a huge copout.

That episode when Tom and Kim were trying to work out how old he was?

That had to be about Pon Far.

Either they were thinking about putting their hat in the ring, or they assumed that during the course of his pon far that Tuvok would work his way through the entire (willing) female compliment, so they had to figure out how much time they had to take a shot at the women they were taking a shine to before Tuvok raised the bar.

We saw Kim get Spaced in deadlock.

Captain Chakotay in Before and After got Voyager just as close as Janeway without suckling up to the Borg.

The Daxs were both delicious in their own very different ways. It's not like much anyone would say "No" if asked to play a game of connect the spots.

Adrenalin junkie?

Post Traumatic Stress?

I'd say half and half.

Although, that's nothing compared to T'Pol huffing Trellium D like it was space crack tweaking off her nut while commanding a starship in battle... And that there were no repercussions after the fact when her HABIT came to light.

 

[dulcimer47]

There's a sense of freshness about the show and the characters are written consistently well with "Prime Factors" a highlight.

It's interesting, because "Prime Factors" shows the flaw with the concept and execution of Voyager - namely, that if they could use this technology to advance their journey home in the blink of an eye, the "story arc" (if you can call it that) of the series would be over, therefore, you know that they won't end up using this technology because it would in essence mean the end of the show's premise in the 9th episode of the 1st season.

 

[dulcimer47]

Yes, it gets better.

But not much.

It's not a bad show, but if you're expecting it to be EPIC (and let's be honest here, you are), you will be disapointed.

I think part of the problem is that I'm watching this show coming off of DS9. I'm used to long story arcs, recurring guest characters, lots of development, and larger scale conflicts. So far, VOY hasn't had much of any of this. But then again, TNG wasn't usually this way either, and I absolutely loved it.

@You Will Fail: About Phage, the only thing that bothered me was Neelix after his lungs were removed. All of his banter throughout the episode got to be kind of annoying. And more importantly than that, it just wasn't an important episode with severe consequences. With the exception of a new alien species being introduced, this episode didn't have a large impact on the characters or the series as a whole. I suppose if you love Faces, then you're going to love Phage because that's the episode that introduced the Vidians (is that the name of the species?), but otherwise it wasn't an important episode.
Anyway, just my opinion. What is it that you loved so much about Phage?

More representative problems:

1. Neelix losing his lung - does this have ANY significance to the series? In fact is this even mentioned again in the series? I think the answer to both is "no." If a main character loses a lung, it should matter; maybe he needs special equipment to help his stamina during away missions, just something to communicate to the audience that what they've just seen actually matters and the writers aren't just throwing ideas out there with no regard for continuity.

Sometimes it felt like the Voyager writers were using the technique for writing Family Guy depicted in South Park... Namely, whales picking out random story ideas and just randomly interjecting them into the series.

2. As you say, TNG was actually very similar to VOY in structure, namely that these two are more closely constructed than DS9, yet, for most, TNG & DS9 were the superior series, why is this? My view is that TNG was so superior to VOY due to greater actors and characters as well as better writers on the whole... Ronald D. Moore has been mentioned. While TNG had contributions from Moore and Ira Steven Behr, VOY was left to Braga... Also, I haven't counted, but I think Michael Piller probably worked on more TNG shows than VOY.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Also TNG had important moral points to make. And lots of meetings. VOY didn't have nearly enough of either of those.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Who really cares about Neelix's lung, the important part of the story wasn't that he got a new lung, its that Kes loved him enough to give him her lung..and that Janeway is merciful, or was at this point.

RE: Hope and Fear - I really think this is a very underrated series, its the perfect bookend to season 4. There's a focus on the Janeway/Seven dynamic, some continuity with Scorpion and Hunters. And its just an interesting concept with a villain you can relate to or at least understand.

RE: Night - I actually really like this episode and it was nice to see Janeway regretful. The only problem was that came out of the blue and was too quickly resolved (Braga admitted this too). I think we needed to see Janeway struggle with her decision more throughout the show or at least work it out in the first couple of seasons, leaving it until season 5 was a little contrived. Oh and I love the line reading of "I made an error in judgment, Chakotay. It was short-sighted and it was selfish, and now all of us are paying for my mistake", evertime I see this episode I end up repeating that over to myself. I also think "Night" would have worked best spread over a couple of episodes so we could see the crew and captain work through their issues. Its far too neat and tidy, but then we are heading into the most serialized Voyager seasons now.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Hey You Will Fail I just watched your 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes youtube in your sig. Wow what a trip that was.. yes I got a little teary a couple times (during the Worf and Jadzia scene). That was really lovely and makes me want to watch all of DS9 again which I have done too many times already. Very nice music too. Saw a couple eps there I had completely forgotten about.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

. Neelix losing his lung - does this have ANY significance to the series? In fact is this even mentioned again in the series? I think the answer to both is "no."

Only have time to say... yes. In Macrocosm, Janeway uses a medical tricorder on Neelix after he's been stung, and she says there is fluid filling up his lungS. he corrects her and says... "Lung."

Was it's mention significant? Maybe not, but it was fun to hear the continuity.

Later for other thoughts.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I pretty much love everything except Riker.

Okay.... you've been hanging around Guy too much.



When did Riker promote Seven? Or do you mean you love everything EXCEPT Riker in Deathwish???

I mean I pretty much love everything in all of Star Trek except Riker. So anytime someone asks "who else loved.." it's kind of a given for me. I could probably think of a few things I was meh about if I tried though.

I liked Riker with a beard. I hated him season 1 of TNG because of his arrogant insistence that he'd never let Picard off the ship in a dangerous situation because the Captain was too important!

WHAT???

Kirk would have phasered him in a heart beat.

 

[Anwar]

Nah, he'd commend him for doing his job and keeping the Captain from potential harm but would overrule him (without any career damage to Riker). Then McCoy would mention that Spock could pick up one or two things from him.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

but then we are heading into the most episodic* Voyager seasons now.

I meant episodic, not serialized, woops.

Hey You Will Fail I just watched your 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes youtube in your sig. Wow what a trip that was.. yes I got a little teary a couple times (during the Worf and Jadzia scene). That was really lovely and makes me want to watch all of DS9 again which I have done too many times already. Very nice music too. Saw a couple eps there I had completely forgotten about.

Thanks! It took me ages! Its difficult making a top 30, and I'd love to see DS9 all through again too but my DVD boxset went missing a couple of years ago, havent got around to replacing it

Only have time to say... yes. In Macrocosm, Janeway uses a medical tricorder on Neelix after he's been stung, and she says there is fluid filling up his lungS. he corrects her and says... "Lung."

Was it's mention significant? Maybe not, but it was fun to hear the continuity.

Later for other thoughts.

Also, Neelix mentions Kes only having one lung in "Before and After" when she blows out the birthday cake.

As for Riker, I really didn't like the character or the actor.

 

[tighr]

Neelix losing his lung - does this have ANY significance to the series? In fact is this even mentioned again in the series? I think the answer to both is "no." If a main character loses a lung, it should matter; maybe he needs special equipment to help his stamina during away missions, just something to communicate to the audience that what they've just seen actually matters and the writers aren't just throwing ideas out there with no regard for continuity.

I'm one of the staunchest supporters for continuity and Voyager hitting the reset button every week, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here. The point of the story isn't Neelix's lung. That was simply the macguffin that got the plot moving. The point of that story was to introduce the Viddians, a technologically advanced race who had the very capability to steal your internal organs out from within you, and that is dangerous. The Viddians go on to be a race that Voyager encounters numerous times.

Again, setting aside the "lung", Neelix gained a respect for away missions in this episode, realizing that they are dangerous. The Doctor was able to show that he was highly capable this early in the series. Kes was shown to care deeply for Neelix. And more importantly, Neelix was shown to be a valued member of the crew, even though he had just signed on to Voyager weeks before. In the face of a dangerous new enemy, Voyager seeks out the perpetrators in order to seek help for their new friend. They could have let Neelix die.

Continuity isn't just about experiences being carried over from episode to episode, but about the changes in the character, so that they aren't just static but dynamic. If you wanted to point out instances where a character should have learned from their mistakes in a previous episode and didn't, Voyager has MANY MANY MANY more better examples than a character losing a lung.

 

[dulcimer47]

. Neelix losing his lung - does this have ANY significance to the series? In fact is this even mentioned again in the series? I think the answer to both is "no."

Only have time to say... yes. In Macrocosm, Janeway uses a medical tricorder on Neelix after he's been stung, and she says there is fluid filling up his lungS. he corrects her and says... "Lung."

Was it's mention significant? Maybe not, but it was fun to hear the continuity.

Later for other thoughts.

I stand corrected, however, in my opinion, whether Janeway says "lung" or "lungs" is pretty trivial. What matters is whether the character (Neelix) is affected in any significant way by this major event (as any normal person would be). It could take the form of PTSD, or another form, just something that communicates to the audience that these are real people (within the universe of the show), and not Sesame Street characters.

 

[dulcimer47]

Neelix losing his lung - does this have ANY significance to the series? In fact is this even mentioned again in the series? I think the answer to both is "no." If a main character loses a lung, it should matter; maybe he needs special equipment to help his stamina during away missions, just something to communicate to the audience that what they've just seen actually matters and the writers aren't just throwing ideas out there with no regard for continuity.

I'm one of the staunchest supporters for continuity and Voyager hitting the reset button every week, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here. The point of the story isn't Neelix's lung. That was simply the macguffin that got the plot moving. The point of that story was to introduce the Viddians, a technologically advanced race who had the very capability to steal your internal organs out from within you, and that is dangerous. The Viddians go on to be a race that Voyager encounters numerous times.

Again, setting aside the "lung", Neelix gained a respect for away missions in this episode, realizing that they are dangerous. The Doctor was able to show that he was highly capable this early in the series. Kes was shown to care deeply for Neelix. And more importantly, Neelix was shown to be a valued member of the crew, even though he had just signed on to Voyager weeks before. In the face of a dangerous new enemy, Voyager seeks out the perpetrators in order to seek help for their new friend. They could have let Neelix die.

Continuity isn't just about experiences being carried over from episode to episode, but about the changes in the character, so that they aren't just static but dynamic. If you wanted to point out instances where a character should have learned from their mistakes in a previous episode and didn't, Voyager has MANY MANY MANY more better examples than a character losing a lung.

I agree.

I was just commenting on an early post in this thread, I've only read the first few pages, and based on the length of this thread, it's clear there is much debate on the question of "does it get better???"

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Its not like Neelix was a pro-athlete. Only having one lung would hardly make an interesting character arc.....I think the storylines regarding his past, his dead relatives, his loss of faith, his attachment to Naomi were a tad more important than a missing lung.