Does It Get Better???

[Anwar]

I rather liked that solution to fighting the Borg, actually. On Star Trek: Voyager they would have just beamed over a photon torpedo, detonated it, and called it a day. In "Descent" it took careful risk-taking to defeat what was still a powerful adversary -- even without the Collective mind.

But what I'm getting at is that if Voyager had done a similar situation wherein they spent most of the episode pissing their pants at the sight of a weakling Probe ship before they lured it near a Star and then caused a solar flare that destroyed the weakling Probe ship while praying to God that it would work, and then fly off a collective bunch of nervous wrecks that they overcame a weakling Probe ship...

...The audience would still say they had weakened the Borg, even if the writers went out of their way to portray the crew as being utterly terrified (and therefore, less competent than the Enterprise crew who showed apprehension but no fear).

Because a weakling Probe ship is more powerful than a Star. Just like the idea of there being even one species out there more powerful than the Borg is utter heresy.

 

[Tidus79001]

Re: Does DS9 Get Better???

Hi folks.

I just recently began watching Voyager on Netflix. So far I am 13 episodes into the show (14 if you count Caretaker as 2 episodes), and while I am enjoying the show and I like the cast, there hasn't been a single episode that has really, really stood out from the rest. Episodes have ranged from below average (Emanations, Cathexis), to average (Caretaker, Heroes and Demons), to slightly above average (Parallax, Prime Factors, State of Flux). The best episode so far has been Eye of the Needle with the Romulan scientist. While it was a very good episode, it's still nowhere near as good as some of the first season episodes from TNG (Datalore, The Neutral Zone) and DS9 (Duet, In the Hands of the Prophets). So, without spoiling anything, can you folks tell me if Voyager is going to significantly improve? Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying this show quite a bit, but I just don't feel like the writers have taken too many risks. There haven't been any standout episodes so far, and that makes me a little worried. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me, and remember: NO SPOILERS!

I would ask that same question about DS9!

It is the only Star Trek series that I turned off during the pilot episode because it was so awful. I never watched the series after that. I have only seen a handful of DS9 episodes. I saw the finale when it aired & it was insultingly dumb, and it wasn't just me who had that exact same sentiment. Every time I watch DS9 it makes me cringe & not want to see more of it.

They had no ship, and just sat on a space station. Sitting of the Station week after week was big turn off. That worked out so well for the series that by season 3 they added the Defiant to help out the serious flagging DS9 series. DS9 was so awful it was the first & only Star Trek series that hired an actor from a previous series (Michael Dorn) to reprise their character role (Worf) as permanent cast member addition. I was shocked that the writers felt that a Star Trek show didn’t need a real ship for exploration & wasn’t surprised that by season 3 they introduced the Defiant as a ship permanently assigned to Deep Space Nine (the runabout idea was a really seemed like someone’s idea of a bad joke since it really wasn’t designed for long range deep space exploration nor was it capable of real defense of the space station).
Now that DS9 is on Netflix I have tried to watch it again. I have gotten 12 episodes in & they are just awful. Even mediocre would be a huge improvement for DS9.
I will give Deep Space Nine credit that once the Defiant was introduced they did encounter more new alien races & explore more that The Next Generation.

Voyager was the series that got Star Trek back to its roots of exploring strange new world, to seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no one had gone before.

 

[Harvey]

I rather liked that solution to fighting the Borg, actually. On Star Trek: Voyager they would have just beamed over a photon torpedo, detonated it, and called it a day. In "Descent" it took careful risk-taking to defeat what was still a powerful adversary -- even without the Collective mind.

But what I'm getting at is that if Voyager had done a similar situation wherein they spent most of the episode pissing their pants at the sight of a weakling Probe ship before they lured it near a Star and then caused a solar flare that destroyed the weakling Probe ship while praying to God that it would work, and then fly off a collective bunch of nervous wrecks that they overcame a weakling Probe ship...

...The audience would still say they had weakened the Borg, even if the writers went out of their way to portray the crew as being utterly terrified (and therefore, less competent than the Enterprise crew who showed apprehension but no fear).

Because a weakling Probe ship is more powerful than a Star. Just like the idea of there being even one species out there more powerful than the Borg is utter heresy.

I'm glad you have the pulse of this hypothetical audience. I tend to think that if the series had produced an episode like that people wouldn't complain about weakening the Borg so much.

 

[Anwar]

Folks already thought Voyager was doing the Borg wrong in "Blood Fever" by showing a Borg corpse, because the Borg are supposed to self-destruct upon death.

If THAT had been the only appearance of the Borg for the entire series, the audience would still say it was an improper showing.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

I don't really think Borg decline began with Voyager. I think the introduction of the Borg Queen in "First Contact" is what totally changed what the Borg were meant to be.
"Scorpion" did a great job of doing an episode without the Borg Queen, and "Dark Frontier" gave us an excellent episode that featured her but also did not present the Borg in any kind of diminished capacity- the Voyager crew didn't take their mission lightly in that episode and came up with tactics and technical knowledge (from the diaries) to accomplish it, and not through brute force.

After that, we didn't even see Voyager really deal directly much with the Borg until "Unimatrix Zero" which was in my opinion awful and really did start ruining the image of the Borg, and then "Endgame" was just the stink cherry on top.

 

[Harvey]

I was pretty young when that episode aired, but I've never seen that reaction on the internet. If it has been said, I'm sure it's not a widespread audience response. "Blood Fever" is an okay episode, with a great sense of foreboding at the end.

You've also claimed that fans hated "Scorpion," although I've found little evidence of that (though the reviewer in this thread does think it weakened the Borg; I don't).

 

[You_Will_Fail]

The fans hardly hated Scorpion when millions more tuned in to see Part 2, and its still a highly rated episode among almost everybody.

 

[Anwar]

Mainly because they were expecting it to be a 100-parter that would take over the entire series.

Once they realized that the show wasn't going to be a convoluted mess like that, they stopped liking "Scorpion" and used it as the starting point of the Borg's fall. Because it showed that it was possible for a Borg ship to take damage that wasn't a plot contrivance.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Ah yes, I keep forgetting you have a psychic link to every Star Trek watcher on the planet. Jeez, your shtick is getting old.

 

[Harvey]

Mainly because they were expecting it to be a 100-parter that would take over the entire series.

Once they realized that the show wasn't going to be a convoluted mess like that, they stopped liking "Scorpion" and used it as the starting point of the Borg's fall. Because it showed that it was possible for a Borg ship to take damage that wasn't a plot contrivance.

Hyperbolic enough for you? Every time you talk about the audience which was critical of Star Trek: Voyager, you seem to be inventing their response out of thin air. It's not conducive to any kind of thoughtful discussion.

 

[Anwar]

The fandom/hatedom says Voyager ruined the Borg, all the way from their first appearance, and never once got them "right".

The first major appearance of the Borg in Voyager was "Scorpion" (the corpse in "Blood Fever" and the breakaway group in "Unity" being nothing but standalone appearances that just served to annoy the hatedom because they still hated the stories regardless), and it is in this episode we're shown explicitly that the Borg aren't invincible nor are they the strongest race in the Trekverse. Thus, this is where the Borg's "fall" began because the story dared to show them as not utterly invincible and thus they were not done "right".

Audience says they never got them right, all the way from first appearance. "Scorpion" is first major appearance, so by correlation this story is not getting them 'right' and starts their 'fall'.

Its up to us to dissect the story as to why they feel this way, and I presented my reasons. Mainly that they're a bunch of hypocrites who liked it at first and later turned on it because it wasn't 100% what they wanted (a 100-parter).

 

[tighr]

Dude, Anwar. I'm as highly critical of Voyager as the next trekker, but where are you getting this bullshit?

 

[AdmiralScreed]

I would respond to some of your points, Anwar, but you would probably just continue to call me a hypocrite and tell me that I am being completely unfair to the Borg in Scorpion. So, with that said I will move on to another episode.

The Gift: A nice farewell to Kes. I thought the ending, with Kes leaving the ship and transforming, felt a bit rushed, but it was still effective. I liked the way she cut ten years from Voyager's journey by getting them out of Borg space.
I didn't care a whole lot for any of the 7 of 9 scenes. She was very whiny, and just repeated her "We are Borg" line over and over.
All in all, a decent offering.
5/10

 

[Anwar]

Dude, Anwar. I'm as highly critical of Voyager as the next trekker, but where are you getting this bullshit?

16 years of observing fandom opinion, noticing any continuing opinion within those 16 years, checking various "What they should have done" topics for any commonalities, "What they did wrong" topics for commonalities, general disgust with Voyager and adding it all up together.

That, and a whole ton of double standard between the series.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

I liked "The Gift" a bit more than you although I do feel it was a flawed episode.
Jeri Ryan's performance as the Borg is a bit too emotional for me and doesn't ring that true considering she spent most of her life as a Borg without experiencing emotions, however the dialogue between her and Janeway was very good I thought. Kes probably deserved a whole episode without a B-plot but at least it was a good send off and I enjoyed that she saved Seven's life at the beginning linking the two characters together, her emotional scenes with Janeway were fantastic but her scene with Neelix was a bit of a cop-out. I also felt it was a shame that she didn't get a scene with Tom before she left.
Overall, it was a good, if very bittersweet episode. I definitely feel like Kes had a lot of potential left in her, much more than Chakotay or Harry.
If I'd been in charge, I would have built an extended airponic/arboretum type set and have Kes moved there as well as being in sickbay. The place could act like a sanctuary and Kes could act as a somewhat unofficial counsellor/sounding board. And I think Kes/Seven interaction would have been very interesting to see - Seven could have learned a lot about femininity and getting in touch with her emotions from Kes.
What a waste!

 

[AdmiralScreed]

^^^Agreed. I don't have much else to add.

 

[RoJoHen]

I love "The Gift." I actually really enjoy the way that Jeri Ryan portrays Seven, and I love the interaction between her and Janeway in the brig. I get a little annoyed, however, with Kes's line, "This is my decision" as she's saying goodbye to the Captain. It seems insulting.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

How is that insulting? It is her decision. And she knows by now that she can take a shuttle and go and Voyager won't be any worse for wear, because they can just use the shuttle-o-matic and pop a new one out in a matter of seconds.

 

[RoJoHen]

How is that insulting? It is her decision. And she knows by now that she can take a shuttle and go and Voyager won't be any worse for wear, because they can just use the shuttle-o-matic and pop a new one out in a matter of seconds.

Because it certainly wasn't Jennifer Lien's decision. It feels like a slap in the face to make her say it.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Oh haha. Yeah I see what you mean and I agree. Whenever I watch that episode, that line is always strikes me as very ironic. And Lien is trying to do this "Oh I'm so excited about the changes I'm going through" when she's clearly on the verge of tears.