Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[jaime]

I literally asked my son this exact question when he threw a huge tantrum over his birthday when he didn't get a Nintendo Switch. My exact words were "How in the HELL are you even slightly surprised by this?" After spending six months constantly bugging me about it and having me so "No" literally every single time it came up, he still somehow assumed I would get it for him anyway.

It's called "wishful thinking." It's how you set yourself up for false expectations when a thing you WISH would happen begins to seem more and more likely TO happen in your mind despite all evidence tot he contrary. "I wish I could get a promotion and make more money!" becomes "I'm going to get that promotion and make more money!" Then you get passed over for the promotion because your performance is poor, you're consistently late, you don't take direction well and you're generally unqualified for the job. You're disappointed, and you're even a little angry, but did your boss actually screw you over or did you just get your delusions shattered in the most abrupt way? (I have literally been on BOTH sides of that conversation at least twice).


Because people spend more time talking among themselves and/or talking TO themselves about these stories than actually watching the stories. A fairly large amount of the lore around Star Wars and Star Trek doesn't actually come from canon at all and is derived from fan theories and audience assumptions about what's really going on.

As a really glaring example: a tremendous number of Star Trek fans believed (and many still believe) that Spock was the only Vulcan in Starfleet during TOS. This is an interesting interpretation of what we saw of the fleet from the old series, but there's nothing on screen that actually establishes that this is the case. But someone who spends a lot of time pondering the implications of that theory -- and becomes very familiar with it and internalizes it as part of their vision of who and what Spock actually is -- would find it very hard to adapt to a version of Spock where he ISN'T the only Vulcan in the fleet, or even the first, or even particularly unique in that regard. It's someone who expects something to be true about Spock that was never actually true in the first place and then becomes angry when it turns out it isn't.

People have a right to be childish and unrealistic. But it is what it is, whether you choose to defend it or not.

Pretty much my whole point and differentiation from your scenario comes down to the parent not saying no...I.e the producers repeatedly saying ‘prime trek’ and also implying it. Do you see?
Expectation raised a party other than the individual, by the person (S) in control of delivery...yes?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think it far more likely some future producer will retroactively declare the show a different universe, and everyone will have to lap it up because, you know, retcons are immutable law or something.

Shit, we're getting back into the swing of things. So, you know what bothered by about TLJ? How they character assassinated General Hux and turned him into a punching bag for all the other characters.

I'm pretty sure Hux gets off on that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

If a major event happens and it contradicts what happened in Prime that we've seen from TOS-ENT, then DISCO is a new timeline.

Like a Klingon/Federation war prior to "Errand of Mercy" or Klingons that totally ignore the events of "Affliction"/"Divergence" or a working spore drive that renders DS9 and Voyager's premises utterly pointless? Something like that?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

The "Affliction"/"Divergence" thing I can see (frankly I thought that two-parter was unnecessary fanwank, but that's only my opinion), I'm not sure what's the issue with those other points.

The spore drive is shelved (like so many other universe bending projects we've seen in Trek) and wasn't there always a Klingon war that's been alluded?

 

[Cyrus]

Some comments from producer/showrunner Aaron Harberts from Wondercon:

The idea was to always be in the Prime Timeline. Obviously, there are questions and concerns and things that are different. Our technology is a little different. We have a ship that runs very differently. We are our own show in a lot of ways. Season two is really exciting for us. This is our opportunity to really show how Discovery fits into this Prime Timeline. We are firmly committed to that.

Regarding uniforms:

We meet up with the Enterprise at the end of the season and we know what kind of uniforms they wear… so we’ll leave it at that

So very bad news for anti-fanwank dudes.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/03/24/7-...very-season-2-at-wondercon-visionaries-panel/

 

[cbl1]

I hadn’t heard that interview. Exciting to see their take in the uniforms abound enterprise.

 

[Tuskin38]

Maybe they’ll use Mack’s idea about the Connie’s having different uniforms.

 

[cultcross]

Yeah, I know. I guess we could always say that Romulan invisiblity screens and any Klingon ships with cloaks from a decade before were considered different technologies and the only surprise in TOS is that the Romulans have them.



Believe me, this is why I wish they hadn't gone the Klingon cloaking device route. It makes explaining this crap more difficult and annoying.

Which was why I personally wanted a reboot (or alternate timeline). The writers and artists could be free to imagine the universe any way they liked.

When they were working on a solution to the cloaking device, Burnham uses some of the same lingo as Spock does to explain it. Including "bending of light". IIRC.

Cloaking devices just seen very forgettable. Long before Discovery came along, Spock and the crew were forgetting about them in The Enterprise Incident.

KIRK: The design of the ship is the same. Mister Spock, you said you had a theory on why your sensors didn't pick up the new ships until they were upon us.
SPOCK: I believe the Romulans have developed a cloaking device which renders our tracking sensors useless.
KIRK: No shit Sherlock, we learnt about that in Balance of Terror
SPOCK: My bad, it's amazing how quickly you forget a cloak isn't it?

 

[Tuskin38]

The enterprise could track them in Balance of Terror, but couldn’t in Enterprise Incident

 

[Donker]

"The idea was to always be in the Prime Timeline."

Hence why they completely ignored canon and now pretend they're going to make it up in S2 (hint: they aren't another lie from the dozens they've already told).
If it was always Prime, why doesn't it match up with Prime timeline at all in pretty much every regard? Why does the show clearly more align with Kelvin?

 

[fireproof78]

Like a Klingon/Federation war prior to "Errand of Mercy" or Klingons that totally ignore the events of "Affliction"/"Divergence" or a working spore drive that renders DS9 and Voyager's premises utterly pointless? Something like that?

Yes, clearly the show has no intent of explaining these things away and actually is just going to let S1 stand on its own without further explanation...

Hence why they completely ignored canon and now pretend they're going to make it up in S2 (hint: they aren't another lie from the dozens they've already told).
If it was always Prime, why doesn't it match up with Prime timeline at all in pretty much every regard? Why does the show clearly more align with Kelvin?

There is no answer that would satisfy.

 

[Tuskin38]

Hence why they completely ignored canon

Except they haven't.

If they completed ignored it, there would be no enterprise, or sarak, or the federation, or the mirror universe, etc. etc.

 

[fireproof78]

Except they haven't.

If they completed ignored it, there would be no enterprise, or sarak, or the federation, or the mirror universe, etc. etc.

It really isn't worth it.

 

[Donker]

If they completed ignored it, there would be no enterprise, or sarak, or the federation, or the mirror universe, etc. etc.

Skimming Memory Alpha for fanwank references does not mean that they respected canon at all.

 

[Gonzo]

Cloaking devices just seen very forgettable. Long before Discovery came along, Spock and the crew were forgetting about them in The Enterprise Incident.

KIRK: The design of the ship is the same. Mister Spock, you said you had a theory on why your sensors didn't pick up the new ships until they were upon us.
SPOCK: I believe the Romulans have developed a cloaking device which renders our tracking sensors useless.
KIRK: No shit Sherlock, we learnt about that in Balance of Terror
SPOCK: My bad, it's amazing how quickly you forget a cloak isn't it?

Its always made me laugh to be honest, basing a working cloak on bending light when starships don't need visual cues to track other ships in space.

Using visual means in the vastness of space is really ludicrous and always was.

It would be like using visual cues to track submarines in the depths of the ocean, utterly useless.

 

[fireproof78]

Skimming Memory Alpha for fanwank references does not mean that they respected canon at all.

Accusing them of such doesn't make it so.

 

[Rahul]

Except they haven't.

If they completed ignored it, there would be no enterprise, or sarak, or the federation, or the mirror universe, etc. etc.

The problem is, they are not really working with pre-established materia. They solely use it for namedrops.
Burnhams adoptive father may be called "Sarek" - and they even namedrop that he's the father of Spock - but they COMPLETELY changed his entire character, to the point the only thing he has in common with Mark Lennard's character are the pointy ears. Same holds true for the mirror universe - what was once a fascist version of the Federation, now is a ridiculous over-the-top force of evil anime-badguys. Yes, they namedrop familiar places organizations and characters. But they disregard their primary characteristics SO MUCH, it would be actually preferably if they instead just introduced completely new characters. Why couldn't "Xon" be Burnhams' adoptive Vulcan dad? Why'd it had to be Sarek? Because nothing of what was on screen was anything like "Sarek" except the name. New Vulcan #3 would have been a much better fit, and ALSO a worthwile addition to Trek canon. Why reference the old stuff if you gonna' change it anyway? Why not start with new stuff if you have your own interpretations anyway?

 

[fireproof78]

The problem is, they are not really working with pre-established materia. They solely use it for namedrops.
Burnhams adoptive father may be called "Sarek" - and they even namedrop that he's the father of Spock - but they COMPLETELY changed his entire character, to the point the only thing he has in common with Mark Lennard's character are the pointy ears. Same holds true for the mirror universe - what was once a fascist version of the Federation, now is a ridiculous over-the-top force of evil anime-badguys. Yes, they namedrop familiar places organizations and characters. But they disregard their primary characteristics SO MUCH, it would be actually preferably if they instead just introduced completely new characters. Why couldn't "Xon" be Burnhams' adoptive Vulcan dad? Why'd it had to be Sarek? Because nothing of what was on screen was anything like "Sarek" except the name. New Vulcan #3 would have been a much better fit, and ALSO a worthwile addition to Trek canon. Why reference the old stuff if you gonna' change it anyway? Why not start with new stuff if you have your own interpretations anyway?

Because it is a lose-lose situation for the production team. If they change Sarek to "Xon" but keep the larger story beats (Human ward being pushed for Vulcan program and rejected, Xon's son rejects Vulcan Science Academy) there would be accusations that they should have just used canon characters. They took a risk, and it succeeded for some, failed for others. I found Sarek much more relatable and connected with him more to the TOS Sarek, who we honestly don't know that much about. He is a very private Vulcan, who Spock didn't discuss being related to until he arrived on the Enterprise. He has a son by a Vulcan priestess, and another son whom we know nothing about.

Regardless, that was probably unnecessary, since I think it fits, and there will be differences in opinion.

The Mirror Universe feels pretty spot on, especially given what we saw with "In a mirror, darkly."

 

[cooleddie74]

For all the criticisms I have of the series the idea that DSC has "ignored" canon and continuity is stretching things to be kind. They're not. They're just very cavalier with some aspects of the canon and play loose and fast with some established continuity, often with questionable results - BUT that said the series is clearly in the Prime timeline in historic terms if not always in aesthetic. If we're going to hold the show's feet to the fire then the whole "This isn't Prime" argument needs to be jettisoned so we can focus on the wider canvas of the storytelling.

I'm much more annoyed that the Klingon War arc ended so poorly and abruptly with so little payoff except for the characters of L'Rell and Tyler/Voq. We spent an entire season starting a war that was then rarely seen onscreen except for some tactical maps and a few random skirmishes in deep space and then ended in the most "let's wrap this thing up over the next few weeks because we clearly didn't think this whole thing through very well" way imaginable. Screw the "this never happened in Prime history" duels over dates and places. ENT proved that you can insert events into the canon that seem completely out-of-place at first but can then be rationalized and fit comfortably into the greater Trek continuity (Enterprise NX-01's existence, anybody?). There was never a line of dialogue in TOS that said there wasn't a Klingon War ten years before that series. I'm more irritated that when it was shown it was so dramatically unsatisfying and didn't have a payoff that made me care that it happened in the first place.

That's the battle we should be fighting. The writing, not the alleged historical revisionism.

 

[BillJ]

SPOCK: I believe the Romulans have developed a cloaking device which renders our tracking sensors useless.

Tracking sensors worked the last time (See: "Balance of Terror"). So I always took this line as the Romulans had taken the technology to the next level.