Discussion of Maquis cause

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't see why the Federation would look cowardly in this instance. As I said, it was the colonists' own idea to live under Cardassian rule. I'm just hazarding a guess that this is common knowledge in Trek's time. So since everyone knows that the colonies in question are Cardassian territory, AND that the Prime Directive forbids the Federation from interfering in colonies that aren't its own, the Federation cannot be blamed for any of this.

And as for the question of the treaty itself? Needs of the many, remember. The treaty with Cardassia affected everyone in the Federation, since without that treaty, there would be war. Politics of any kind will always involve compromises, and this surely is one. And since the colonists always had the option to MOVE, the reason why the Federation should have sat around wringing its hands because of a few hundred people gets smaller and smaller all the time.

To put it another way: Let's say that my city government does want to claim eminent domain and take my house. Let us also say that they have a brand spanking new house all ready for me to move into. You think I'm going to dig my head in the sand and say "But I don't want to abandon my home! Waaah! Waaah!"? Hell no! I'll leave skid marks on the way out of my front door. That is the analogy here: not only will the Federation help those colonists move, it'll already have new homes ready for them. That's the way the Federation works. Living space is infinite, and new homes can be constructed in an instant. (IRL, the government wouldn't exactly build me a new home, but they would have to pay me enough money to have it done.)

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I don't see why the Federation would look cowardly in this instance. As I said, it was the colonists' own idea to live under Cardassian rule. I'm just hazarding a guess that this is common knowledge in Trek's time. So since everyone knows that the colonies in question are Cardassian territory, AND that the Prime Directive forbids the Federation from interfering in colonies that aren't its own, the Federation cannot be blamed for any of this.

And as for the question of the treaty itself? Needs of the many, remember. The treaty with Cardassia affected everyone in the Federation, since without that treaty, there would be war. Politics of any kind will always involve compromises, and this surely is one. And since the colonists always had the option to MOVE, the reason why the Federation should have sat around wringing its hands because of a few hundred people gets smaller and smaller all the time.

And this is missing the point.

The big reason for the conflict was that the Cardasssians started arming their colonists IN THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE in direct violation of their treaty of with the Federation.

The Federation was completely ignorant of this and the resulting shooting war until Dukat of all people pointed it out to them.

The fact that it took them a little while after finding out about the conflict to realize the Cardassians are violating the treaty makes them look even stupider.

See heres the thing a treaty isn't worth anything if one of the groups who signed it ignores it.

And its also the high of stupidity to suddenly trust someone who has tried to stab you in the back twice already.

To put it another way: Let's say that my city government does want to claim eminent domain....

Unless their was a previous agreement or a condemnation proceeding they can't.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the Cardasssians started arming their colonists IN THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE in direct violation of their treaty of with the Federation.

The Federation was completely ignorant of this and the resulting shooting war until Dukat of all people pointed it out to them.

It's a big Federation. You can't expect them to keep a constant watch on the DMZ to monitor everything that happens there all the time. And besides, the DMZ is not even Federation territory anymore, and the colonists are no longer Federation citizens. So from the UFP's perspective, why should the Federation even care what happens there?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

the Cardasssians started arming their colonists IN THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE in direct violation of their treaty of with the Federation.

The Federation was completely ignorant of this and the resulting shooting war until Dukat of all people pointed it out to them.

It's a big Federation. You can't expect them to keep a constant watch on the DMZ to monitor everything that happens there all the time.

And yet somehow they manage to monitor the Romulan Neutral Zone all the time.

Not to mention that the Cardassians still aren't best buddies with them under the treaty so its probably a good idea to keep an eye on them especially to make sure everyone is adjusting to the new status quo.

And besides, the DMZ is not even Federation territory anymore, and the colonists are no longer Federation citizens. So from the UFP's perspective, why should the Federation even care what happens there?

And yet they cared enough to actually consider the Maquis an enemy.

And again its still a DMZ which means NO GUNS.

 

[Use of Time]

the Cardasssians started arming their colonists IN THE DEMILITARIZED ZONE in direct violation of their treaty of with the Federation.

The Federation was completely ignorant of this and the resulting shooting war until Dukat of all people pointed it out to them.

It's a big Federation. You can't expect them to keep a constant watch on the DMZ to monitor everything that happens there all the time.

And yet somehow they manage to monitor the Romulan Neutral Zone all the time.

Not to mention that the Cardassians still aren't best buddies with them under the treaty so its probably a good idea to keep an eye on them especially to make sure everyone is adjusting to the new status quo.

And besides, the DMZ is not even Federation territory anymore, and the colonists are no longer Federation citizens. So from the UFP's perspective, why should the Federation even care what happens there?

And yet they cared enough to actually consider the Maquis an enemy.

And again its still a DMZ which means NO GUNS.

They monitored the Neutral Zone because the Romulans were a significantly more serious threat to Federation interests. That and it was also tricky to find out exactly what their intentions were. Look, I'm not saying that they should have blatantly ignored the treaty but Federation politics are most likely more complicated than that of a single member race union like Cardassia. I could easily see some human championing the issues in the DMZ only to have several of the other member worlds say that they would prefer to avoid war at all costs.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Of course I fully support the Maquis.

Federation was supposed to protect its citizens, and it didn't. Cardies were looking to ethnically cleanse the DMZ.

Federation looked like United Nations during Earth genocides. Despicable.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Federation was supposed to protect its citizens, and it didn't.

Actually, yes, it did. It signed the peace treaty with Cardassia. That protects the entire Federation - because without the treaty, there would be war.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Federation was supposed to protect its citizens, and it didn't.

Actually, yes, it did. It signed the peace treaty with Cardassia. That protects the entire Federation - because without the treaty, there would be war.

Nah.
They are supposed to monitor for treaty infractions by the other side. They didn't bother to take any measures once it was understood that cardies were attempting forced expulsion.
Feds were completely impotent

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm not disputing that the Federation could have been watching the DMZ more closely. I am referring to the reason the treaty was signed in the first place. The Federation protects ALL of its citizens - in or out of the DMZ - by signing that treaty, because without it, Cardassia will declare war on the Federation.

Of course, given the obvious racial prejudice against Cardassians that many of those colonists (such as Eddington) had, war with Cardassia may have been what they wanted all along...

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^ I'm not disputing that the Federation could have been watching the DMZ more closely. I am referring to the reason the treaty was signed in the first place. The Federation protects ALL of its citizens - in or out of the DMZ - by signing that treaty, because without it, Cardassia will declare war on the Federation.

Of course, given the obvious racial prejudice against Cardassians that many of those colonists (such as Eddington) had, war with Cardassia may have been what they wanted all along...

Ok yeah I agree with you there.

As for the prejudices, it would be there no doubt. But what they wanted or not doesn't mean anything IMO until actions are taken. Cardies started killing them and Feds didn't do anything to protect them. There is no excuse for that in my mind.

Whether it was bureaucrats or a lack of political will, I don't know, but it was criminal

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ I'm not disputing that the Federation could have been watching the DMZ more closely. I am referring to the reason the treaty was signed in the first place. The Federation protects ALL of its citizens - in or out of the DMZ - by signing that treaty, because without it, Cardassia will declare war on the Federation.

Of course, given the obvious racial prejudice against Cardassians that many of those colonists (such as Eddington) had, war with Cardassia may have been what they wanted all along...

Ok yeah I agree with you there.

As for the prejudices, it would be there no doubt. But what they wanted or not doesn't mean anything IMO until actions are taken. Cardies started killing them and Feds didn't do anything to protect them. There is no excuse for that in my mind.

Whether it was bureaucrats or a lack of political will, I don't know, but it was criminal

It also doesn't help that this was the fourth time the Cardassians pulled a stunt like that.

 

[BillJ]

^ I'm not disputing that the Federation could have been watching the DMZ more closely. I am referring to the reason the treaty was signed in the first place. The Federation protects ALL of its citizens - in or out of the DMZ - by signing that treaty, because without it, Cardassia will declare war on the Federation.

I think it just shows how big a threat the Federation really thought the Cardassians were. They had the Enterprise alone as the front line in a potential war with the Cardassians in "Chain of Command".

Until they paired up with the Dominion the Federation likely saw them as a nuisance.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ I'm not disputing that the Federation could have been watching the DMZ more closely. I am referring to the reason the treaty was signed in the first place. The Federation protects ALL of its citizens - in or out of the DMZ - by signing that treaty, because without it, Cardassia will declare war on the Federation.

I think it just shows how big a threat the Federation really thought the Cardassians were. They had the Enterprise alone as the front line in a potential war with the Cardassians in "Chain of Command".

Until they paired up with the Dominion the Federation likely saw them as a nuisance.

It probably didn't help the in the Wounded that the Cardassians attempts to stop the Phoenix were about as effective as the Japanese military against giant monsters in a Godzilla movie.

 

[EntropyExpanse]

Major Kira, someone who fought their entire life against Cardassian oppression, whose entire species was enslaved and butchered by Cardassians thought the Maquis cause was idiotic. Why is that? Her Homeworld was conquered and her entire race could have been exterminated, that's what she was fighting against. From her point of view the Maquis are essentially fighting and dying, and trying to get everyone else to do the same over what would be considered in the Trek universe as a few gas stations in the middle of nowhere.

But the thing is, something that Kira and the Fed didn't realize is that the people in those colonies have become so far removed from the Federation that they no longer consider Earth, Vulcan, or wherever their "true" homeworld is, as their actual homeworld anymore. This is the real threat to any massive galactic empire in my mind. At some point you have trillions of humans spread across vast differences in all sorts of unique environments that they naturally lose their allegiance to your philosophy, or they end up branching off completely from humanity by having freaky hot alien sex. It shows that even with warp-speed and fantastic communications technology at some point you'll go around the entire universe and end up meeting yourself without even knowing it...as if you were a Q ?

 

[Captain Qwert Jr]

And again its still a DMZ which means NO GUNS.

Trying to equate what military terms mean, with what Trek writers think they mean, will only lead to misery and madness.

Anyhow, I am against the Maquis because, in this case, I actually expect more from Rodenberry humans.

Political science and psychology has advanced 350 years in Trek, or 'evolved' to use the series favored descriptor. Fed citizens should understand what they are getting into when colonizing. Having to leave abruptly should the unfathomable occur, should be one of the things advanced mature colonizers need to be prepared to do.

Also, I like to think the Cardy-Fed “war” was a sophisticated plot by the Obsidian Order.

In my fevered imaginings, Cardassia discovered the Federation first, through the colonies which as the 'Deep Space' in DS9 implies are very, very far from the Fed core worlds. The Order sized these intruders up, as more powerful than they were, but self-assured to the point of vanity after a long 80+ year peace, and hatch a scheme to take advantage of it.
They engaged in a series of single ship/small fleet actions, while dropping hints that these conflicts were all due to a misunderstanding. Why the Fed was unknowingly encroaching on someones turf! What a ghastly faux pas! Then, faster than you can say, “In a different reality, I could have called you friend”, 'wise' Fed diplomats pick up on these clues, and reason out the mystery of this mysterious conflict. Negotiators meet. A border zone is established that both extends and confirms what is considered Cardasian space, even if it wasn't. Peace is declared! (Enabran Tain: “If eventually, they start to suspect we put one over them, we'll toss them Bajor. It'll make them feel like big, damn heroes!”)


The Cardies get a few class-M planets (tokens but extracted from the mighty Fed. Symbolic!), lose some crap that probably wasn’t theirs in the first place. come out seeming more powerful than they are and The harder-headed and hearted space powers closer to the federation will only see weakness in the Fed and no doubt make trouble for them...far away from Cardassia. Win win win

Former Fed colonists that remain can be dealt with at leisure. No need to rush, it's not like there's...oh, i don’t know...A stable wormhole conferring goodies from across time and space on it's possessor, anywhere around there.

 

[Use of Time]

^ I actually like this. It kind of goes with my feelings that the Cardassians are more style than substance. They tend to posture and manipulate rather than go into an uncertain battle where victory is not guaranteed. Their poking of the Federation on the fringe and bragging about their "successful engagements" with the Federation makes them feel like a big time player in the Alpha Quadrant while others consider them an annoyance.

 

[Lance]

I find it incredibly ironic that the Maquis were created for use on Voyager, and that as we know their TNG and DS9 appearances were only supposed to be backstory to setup the supposed 'interpersonal conflict' on Voyager, but in practical terms it was DS9, and not Voyager, which got the most milage out of the concept!

Naturally, it all makes perfect sense in hindsight. DS9 was the show that had the Cardies as a regular presence, after all. Of course it was going to make best use of them. But I'll bet you it totally wasn't how the production team originally predicted things would pan out...

 

[-Brett-]

From a purely storytelling standpoint, the show runners failed to convince us that we should care about these largely unseen, unnamed colonies or their largely unseen, unnamed inhabitants.

Trying to think from a purely in-universe standpoint, sure, I can see it.

If the Cardassians had demanded Earth as the price for peace, I guess the moral issue would be a little more easily digestible. Then again, the Federation wouldn't give up Earth, would it? That's probably part of why the Maquis were pissed off. "You lost your home? That's okay. We still have ours."

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

How long had the colonists been settled on these planets? Was it a couple generations?

 

[Dale Sams]

But...but....Indians!!