Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretaker?

[Sam_I_Am]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

The Captain can appoint anyone to be Executive Officer and that person has authority over all other officers aside the Captain, even those who outrank him.

Position is a different concept to rank. For example, while captain of the Enterprise in Gambit, Data appoints Worf XO. Now, even though Worf is still outranked by Geordi (not to mention Crusher and Troi), his authority comes from his position as executive officer.

Similarly, even after Troi's promotion, Data remains second officer despite her superior rank and command qualification.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Just because the Captain can appoint anyone XO, it doesn't mean that he should.

Data needed a Chief engineer more than he did a Tactical Officer at that point, and those positions during Gambit where by no means permanent, even Data's, which is why Data threatened to remove Worf and stick Geordie in the XO slot if he couldn't stow his attitude.

 

[bbjeg]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Back to topic (kinda), it would have been neat if a DS9 crewman had family on Voyager (not necessarily a fallen original crewman but it'll be a buzz kill if it was. It turned out Voyager survived, but your sister died day one.) Tie-in conflicts.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Samantha's husband worked on DS9.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

In Imperfection there's a list of deceased officers, including one with a superior rank to both Cavitt and Chakotay. The list is as follows...

Commander J. Bartlett.
Lt. Cdr. L. McGarry.
Lt. Cdr. T. Ziegler.
Lt. Cdr. Josh Lyman.
Lt. S. Seaborne.
Ens. Claudia J. Craig.
Ens. Charles Young.

Since those are obviously joke names (they are all characters from The West Wing), I'm not sure we should feel obligated to take them as "real".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Yes, it is a fantastic joke courtesy of the props department, but it is also canon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

^ Then so are the duck, hamster on wheel, etc. in the Ent-D's schematics...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Some ####s have even tried to decanonize the bowling lanes on the first Enterprise.

Sometimes I want to slap the world.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Lt Commander Cavitt wasn't the XO, possibly Lt Commander Chakotay wasn't either.

In Imperfection there's a list of deceased officers, including one with a superior rank to both Cavitt and Chakotay. The list is as follows...

Commander J. Bartlett.

Just because there was an officer aboard with a higher rank than Cavitt, doesn't automatically mean that person was the XO instead of Cavitt.

The XO isn't the person with the second highest rank, it a position.

True, First Officer (XO) isn't necessarily the second highest rank on the ship, but IS ALWAYS the second highest authority of that ship, in the command structure. But it is also usually going to be the second highest ranking officer after the captain, when it comes to the command staff. If there is a commander in the command staff (gold shirt or maroon shirt, depending on what era you are talking about), and a number of LT commanders, it doesn't make sense that a captain is going to make a LT Commander the first officer. If the captain doesn't like the Commander that much (yet doesn't want him/her in the position of First officer, and for some reason cannot transfer that officer off the ship), the captain is just going to promote one of the LT commanders to full commander, and make that one the first officer. So by rank, he\she will have equal rank to that commander, but by position still outranks them.

Also, you could have higher ranking officers on the ship, but they are not part of the command structure. For example, if you have Scotty as Captain of engineering, but you are likely going to have a Commander within the command staff on the bridge as First Officer.

Or, you may have a medical officer as a Commander, yet the first officer is a LT Commander. For example, both Crusher and Troi were full commanders, but were not part of the command staff, and thus, by position, Data outranked them, when it came to the command structure of the ship.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

I'm assuming that Crusher always had at least a decades seniority over Riker and that they were both Full commanders in the pilot.

Was the Bridge Officers Examination created in later years meant to explain the schism?

Besides, Doctors start at Lieutenant jg, although medical school takes a while, and was Beverly promoted to the rank of commander so that she could be the CMO on the flagship, or were they looking for an adept Commander to take up the position of CMO on the flagship... Although? When Picard was offered Starfleet academy, that would have been the equivilence of an Admiralcy... You would think that Bev would have gotten a promotion hand in hand when she was Given Starfleet Medical... Admiral Crusher? Followed by a demotion upon her return to Enteprise... I don't think all she did was go back to see her son.

Stop it.

For gods sake I get it.

Position and rank are different.

I heard you last time and I can read your thoughts this time.

Position and rank are two things happening in parrallel that can compliment or ignore each other.

I asked for evidence of a ship where the second haighest ranked officer was not the First Officer and the Ent D is the solid answer to that... Although I would be willing to argue that medical ranks are handed out for completely different merrits than almost all other fields within Starfleet, you'll notice that Julian is a lot more rounded and invested in the fleet than McCoy, and that the Doctors if they really chose to concentrate on just the medicine are little more than civilian specialists no matter the rank they are-given/need to be able to do their job.

How the fuck did Fank Burns get to be a Major?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Superiors probably just kept promoting Frank to get him out of their outfit.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

The war only lasted 3 years.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Now I want some Korean Army Stew. I am overcome with food lust for it.

 

[Lance]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

It is kind of a weird question isn't it? I mean, the JJ movies pretty much canonize the concept that any bastard can be promoted to any position if the Captain commands it, but wouldn't it be strange if, say, you had a staff that included multiple Lieutenants, Lt Cmdrs and Commanders... but if none of them were on the command track, you would be compelled to promote Harry Kim to XO?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Now I want some Korean Army Stew. I am overcome with food lust for it.

Budejiggae? Really? Ramen, spam, and kojujang (chili paste) that's it plus any old odds and ends in the fridge. Don't forget some Kimchii, I recommend grilling that before adding. I can't imagine why it's so popular, but the Pacific basin's love affair with spam is just one of those cosmological mysteries that will drive one mad should you try to fathom it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

About the bridge officer's test:

This is, apparently, only for blue-shirts - doctors, counselors, etc. They're the ones who normally don't get to stand watch on the bridge, and have to take a special exam to get command qualifications. Anyone who wears a blue uniform has to do it. There's no evidence that normal command-line officers (red or gold unis) have to.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

I assumed that the people wanting to go into command, do a version of this test while they are still cadets because that's when they decided that they wanted to be bridge officers.

Or are you saying that what we saw Deanna take was sorta like a G.E.D.?

 

[Lance]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

It definitely felt kinda like an 'advanced course' scenario to me. Technically Troi was already a part of the chain-of-command, if we are to believe the events in "Disaster", but that she'd just never had any actual training in that regard, as it was never seen as a possibility that she'd actually find herself in the position of needing to take control.

(Don't ask me why somebody without the training could be in the chain-of-command. Starfleet's system of ranking is dumbass. I blame it on her being given a uniform/established command rank in the pilot episode. If they'd just established from the very get go that she's some kind of civilian councillor aboard the ship, rather than a Starfleet officer, then there wouldn't even be a problem, not to mention it would help explain her very loose uniform code for seven seasons.)

Anyway, Troi having to take a course to fully 'qualify' her for her already apparent place in the chain-of-command is as stupid as a paramedic having to learn basic first aid after six years in the job.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Counsellors, chief counsellors at least, are in part in control of everyone elses promotion track... Which would require her to be inside the mechanism to effect and maintain officially sanctioned change.

Is Deanna part of the "demotion" proccess too?

Meanwhile secrets. Counsellors must be a significant rank to be allowed privy to levels of secrets or the stewardship of specific ranks. Apparently a Lieutenant commander, her rank in Encounter at Farpoint, is significant enough to console a Captain... but would an Admiral feel comfortable talking to her about events of situations above her paygrade.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Did we ever learn much about the original crew who died in Caretak

Now I want some Korean Army Stew. I am overcome with food lust for it.

Budejiggae? Really? Ramen, spam, and kojujang (chili paste) that's it plus any old odds and ends in the fridge. Don't forget some Kimchii, I recommend grilling that before adding. I can't imagine why it's so popular, but the Pacific basin's love affair with spam is just one of those cosmological mysteries that will drive one mad should you try to fathom it.

When you get it here it has baked beans in it and a processed cheese slice on top.. something about all that fake pork meat flavour goes well with the red paste.