So they felt they didn't get the credit they deserved.
Did TATV show a contempt for the characters and actors?
- Thread starter Voth commando1
- Start date
So, take out Riker and Troy and all the TNG bits. Keep the base story. Insert William Shatner as Chef. I would have loved the story, and absolutely adored a cameo by Shatner. Paying Shatner to appear would have been the most amazing "Valentine to the fans." Considering the chef show he was producing at the time, he would have jumped at the opportunity. I'm just bringing this up (again) to say that there were all kinds of possibilities at the time that could have been better. They took a really bad option.
I never liked Riker enough for him to be a "Valentine." They assumed that using Riker and Troy would be a "Valentine." Not really. Assuming too much. Keeping Trip alive and having him and T'Pol making babies would have added to my love, but it doesn't have to be all about my 'ships.
Making the finale of Enterprise be the finale of TNG is what is insulting to me. I am a fan of Trek, but this wasn't the end of Trek. I am a fan of Enterprise, and this was the end of Enterprise. The finale should have been about that.
I never liked Riker enough for him to be a "Valentine." They assumed that using Riker and Troy would be a "Valentine." Not really. Assuming too much. Keeping Trip alive and having him and T'Pol making babies would have added to my love, but it doesn't have to be all about my 'ships.
Making the finale of Enterprise be the finale of TNG is what is insulting to me. I am a fan of Trek, but this wasn't the end of Trek. I am a fan of Enterprise, and this was the end of Enterprise. The finale should have been about that.
Last edited:
^ Chef should have played an ancestor of James Kirk, his great uncle Tiberius Kirk or great grand father looking just like William Shatner or even funnier Leonard Nimoy.
Well, Coto was also not going to continue the Trip/T'Pol relationship. According to him, their relationship doesn't go on beyond Terra Prime. I don't know if they're bitter as they've been so apologetic over it, especially Braga. They will most likely not be forgiven...
I think they just weren't expecting the reaction to TATV that it received. The episode bears many structural and featural similarities to the Voyager Season 6 episode Pathfinder. It could have been a disaster, but was done just right, and was a great success.
Trip & T'Pol could've been such a cool couple. The actors looked good together, they were of similar talent, as well. It was a nice match-up. And then ... the writing took over and spoilt it all. Between that and their massage sessions with Jolene's absurd hand-bras ... I smelled trouble, right away. I understand wanting to put more 'drama' into the show and trying to up the interest and entertainment factors ... and how that might've encouraged them to keep the romance more casual.
But these shitty-assed writers always went about it the wrong way. Oh! But she HAS to marry Koss, because her mum needs a job and can't afford up-to-date kitchen appliances. Oh! Trip & T'Pol have a kid, but only because some whackadoo forced it on them, without their prior knowledge or consent! Oh! Their Psychic Love Bond gives Trip special powers, like the ability to resist scantily-clad Orion women. Give me that script, you piece of shit writer ... give it ... GIVE IT HERE!!! Don't even know what the hell you're doing -- look at you ...
But these shitty-assed writers always went about it the wrong way. Oh! But she HAS to marry Koss, because her mum needs a job and can't afford up-to-date kitchen appliances. Oh! Trip & T'Pol have a kid, but only because some whackadoo forced it on them, without their prior knowledge or consent! Oh! Their Psychic Love Bond gives Trip special powers, like the ability to resist scantily-clad Orion women. Give me that script, you piece of shit writer ... give it ... GIVE IT HERE!!! Don't even know what the hell you're doing -- look at you ...
Though the holodeck frame is inherently problematic, for reasons already well outlined in this thread, if it's going to be there, for me it would have worked sooooo much better if they made two changes in the execution:
1. Cut down Riker/Troi's screentime! They feel way too dominant in the show as aired. The Valentine-to-the-fans thing is more appropriate if they're used as bookends to the ep, instead of such strong presences throughout.
2. Put it on the Titan! It's more interesting to give us a peek into Riker/Troi's life in the post-Nemesis "present" than it is to labor so strenuously to fold this into an existing episode, in a way that ultimately doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And I am usually not one to complain that the vampire (or android) is aging -- I understand we can't arrest the aging process to make our filmed fiction more plausible -- but there are limits to how far you can push it, and Riker/Troi playing 10+ years younger than their actual ages in this crossed that line.
1. Cut down Riker/Troi's screentime! They feel way too dominant in the show as aired. The Valentine-to-the-fans thing is more appropriate if they're used as bookends to the ep, instead of such strong presences throughout.
2. Put it on the Titan! It's more interesting to give us a peek into Riker/Troi's life in the post-Nemesis "present" than it is to labor so strenuously to fold this into an existing episode, in a way that ultimately doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And I am usually not one to complain that the vampire (or android) is aging -- I understand we can't arrest the aging process to make our filmed fiction more plausible -- but there are limits to how far you can push it, and Riker/Troi playing 10+ years younger than their actual ages in this crossed that line.
I think it's interesting that the IaMD duo were also Enterprise episodes that weren't exactly Enterprise episodes but they were pretty positively received, I guess mostly because they weren't aired as the finale and maybe also because they were paying homage to the original show rather than TNG.
I don't have many strong feelings about this but I dislike using 'The Pegasus' framing device but can also appreciate their intent. I feel like a better framing method would have been to set this on the Titan (just use Enterprise-E film sets or make some new ones) with Riker and Troi talking about the early days of the Federation, which could give the NX-01 more significance in the story than Riker's bullshit Pegasus issues that don't even fit with the TNG episode. You don't even need the holodeck but could still have Frakes appear in the past as if he is imagining himself there, like mentally roleplaying. Or just cut from Riker talking about the NX-01 to then seeing the NX-01 in action. You could basically put Riker in the meta-role of Enterprise series fan with a commentary about how the NX-01 had importance. But they absolutely should have had Archer actually say his damn speech. The final moments with three Enterprise's was gorgeous though.
#TheseArentMyVoyages
#TripsLivesMatter
I agree with many of the complaints already expressed in this thread. However, I ultimately feel that TATV is a warmed over Flashback, in that the framing device created a barrier between the cast and the guests, The actions of both have no real impact on the other: Sulu doesn't really interact with Janeway; Riker doesn't interact with Trip or the rest of the NX-01 crew. Perhaps if the dilemma Riker faced actually resembled a conflict that Trip faced, maybe it would make some sense. Why Riker went Larping in the middle of a tense diplomatic and military event made no sense. Regardless, Riker was an observer, and there was not real interaction in the episode.
Brannon Braga thought TATV was a "...noble failure" - I guess I tend to agree with him on this. Good intentions, bad execution.
https://twitter.com/BrannonBraga/status/834587241464766464
https://twitter.com/BrannonBraga/status/834587241464766464
"Noble"?
Nope. Nopity nope nope. The dopey senseless brain-fart suicide Trip death alone ranks this as a travesty, not a noble anything. Yessir, it showed contempt -- for responsible storytelling.
Braga and Berman skewered character contunuity and plot credibility, and totally whiffed on an emotionally satisfying ending. The ship shots and voiceovers at the end were not enough to brain-scrub the previous 40 minutes out of my head.
I am an Enterprise fan. For me, TATV was an awful, embarrassing hack job by writers who clearly loved their other baby more. Shame on them for still trying to put it in any sort of positive light.
Get over it, Beebs. It sucked.
Nope. Nopity nope nope. The dopey senseless brain-fart suicide Trip death alone ranks this as a travesty, not a noble anything. Yessir, it showed contempt -- for responsible storytelling.
Braga and Berman skewered character contunuity and plot credibility, and totally whiffed on an emotionally satisfying ending. The ship shots and voiceovers at the end were not enough to brain-scrub the previous 40 minutes out of my head.
I am an Enterprise fan. For me, TATV was an awful, embarrassing hack job by writers who clearly loved their other baby more. Shame on them for still trying to put it in any sort of positive light.
Get over it, Beebs. It sucked.
Absolutely.
Like going to a party with their spouse and then spending the evening in the company of their 'ex'...
And then ending the evening killing the spouse....Absolutely.
Like going to a party with their spouse and then spending the evening in the company of their 'ex'...
I thought Flashback was a decent episode. In Pathfinder (imo a great episode), Barclay isn't really interacting with the Voyager crew. They are just simulations, but they are helping him in some weird, creepy way.
As has been said on this thread before, TATV was never intended to be the show's finale. It was meant as a "swan song" to connect the first and last show of the era, and say goodbye to televised Trek. ENT's finale, Terra Prime, aired on the same day as TATV, and has, I would say, an emotionally satisfying conclusion.
If Flashback turned out well enough. and Pathfinder turned out really good, I think it's safe to call it a "noble effort."
I do agree with a bunch of your points - TATV was executed very badly (FYI - Trip death really P'd me off). I guess my point, which I could have stated better, was that his intentions were (for lack of a better word) "noble". I don't believe Bragga set out to screw over the fans, even though it wound up doing that exact thing. To be fair I've gotta at least recognize the years Bragga spent in the ST universe (yes some good episodes, some bad). Yes, he knew ST was going off the air for a considerable amount of time, but choosing to tell the story through the eyes of TNG characters viewing a holodeck story - yeah bad execution.
Ahh, my take - just an opinion.
Beeb1: Let's kill off one of the main characters. That's always good for shock value.
Beeb2: Hey, let's off Trip! He's the favorite, since we ruined any regard for Archer with all that sloppy inconsistent writing.
B1: Agreed, we'll kill Trip. The fans will cry buckets.
B2: Especially since we strung them along with Trip and T'Pol getting together and watching their daughter die and crying and holding hands over the IDIC. The fans are primed for a happy ending, the saps.
B1: Ooh! Ooh! Let's say they broke up first. Then kill Trip. Double whammy!
B2: Bro, you are fearless. I'm in awe of your lack of fear. But...they're bonded. They were talking about having a baby. How do we explain them breaking up?
B1: Pffft, skip that. Show's dead, who cares. The fans will be paying more attention to Riker and Troi anyway.
B2: Yes. Yes, of course. You think of everything. Awesome. Okay, why does Trip die? We need a really good reason, I dunno, major sacrifice, saving the ship, giving his life for another--
B1: I got it! Trip dies so Archer can make a speech!
B2: I am truly in the presence of genius. Where's my camera? I gotta immortalize this moment. The fans will never forget you for this.
B1: Us, bro, they'll never forget us.
B2: And the last image they'll see on Enterprise is...
B1: Will Riker.
B2: Genius. Friggin' genius. I'm not worthy.
B1: All I want is to do right by The Next Gen--er, Enterprise, that's it. Truly. Sincerely.
B2: Yeah. Me too, bro.
Beeb2: Hey, let's off Trip! He's the favorite, since we ruined any regard for Archer with all that sloppy inconsistent writing.
B1: Agreed, we'll kill Trip. The fans will cry buckets.
B2: Especially since we strung them along with Trip and T'Pol getting together and watching their daughter die and crying and holding hands over the IDIC. The fans are primed for a happy ending, the saps.
B1: Ooh! Ooh! Let's say they broke up first. Then kill Trip. Double whammy!
B2: Bro, you are fearless. I'm in awe of your lack of fear. But...they're bonded. They were talking about having a baby. How do we explain them breaking up?
B1: Pffft, skip that. Show's dead, who cares. The fans will be paying more attention to Riker and Troi anyway.
B2: Yes. Yes, of course. You think of everything. Awesome. Okay, why does Trip die? We need a really good reason, I dunno, major sacrifice, saving the ship, giving his life for another--
B1: I got it! Trip dies so Archer can make a speech!
B2: I am truly in the presence of genius. Where's my camera? I gotta immortalize this moment. The fans will never forget you for this.
B1: Us, bro, they'll never forget us.
B2: And the last image they'll see on Enterprise is...
B1: Will Riker.
B2: Genius. Friggin' genius. I'm not worthy.
B1: All I want is to do right by The Next Gen--er, Enterprise, that's it. Truly. Sincerely.
B2: Yeah. Me too, bro.
^ Oh Dawg, that sums it up.
