Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[BillJ]

Abramsverse Spock would be better suited for the job. Why not make him captain. He was the original first officer, after all and already has a proven track record.

We don't really know what kind of track record Spock has. When we see him, he is working at the Academy. Which is during a time when he was only a Lieutenant and working in deep space exploration in the Prime timeline. Starfleet may be suffering from other personnel issues in this timeline.

 

[WebLurker]

Well, that's the beauty of these films. They are not showing Kirk being perfect (aside from his hair) but learning and growing. Star Trek Beyond will be an interesting test to see if Kirk has learned and grown from his experiences.

But he showed Into Darkeness that he had learned nothing from his experiences in the '09 movie. He's not learning or growing.

 

[fireproof78]

But he showed Into Darkeness that he had learned nothing from his experiences in the '09 movie. He's not learning or growing.

His willingness to die for his crew and his speech at the end of STID show nothing?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But again there are captains and first officers in the laurentian system.

Yes, but nobody gives a shit about them.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, but nobody gives a shit about them.

We also don't know their fates?

 

[WebLurker]

His willingness to die for his crew and his speech at the end of STID show nothing?

What did Pike tell him after the alleged maturity he learned from the Nero incident?

"You think the rules don't apply to you. There's greatness in you, but there's not an ounce of humility. You think that you can't make mistakes, but there's going to come a moment when you realize you're wrong about that, and you're going to get yourself and everyone under your command killed." (my emphasis)

In this movie, he shows not repentance for lying about breaking orders. He undertook the mission to find "Harrison" without questioning the morality of it -- much less the fact that firing on Q'onoS (not "Kronos"!) would be an act of war. When Scotty resigns, Kirk gives Chekov, who's not an engineer the job of chief engineer instead of the actual assistant chief engineer, a serious mistake, given how they needed engineering to be run by a qualified officer when the ship shut down. He would've killed his entire crew, except that Scotty saved his behind. He willingly partners with Khan against his better experienced first officer's advice, a war criminal (although not the tyrant that Spock erroneously describes him as), which leads to Khan's kamikaze strike on San Francisco, which had to have killed countless people.

How has he showed that he's ready for the big chair? Just because he wants to do the right thing and comes through on that has no bearing on his qualifications to command the Federation flagship.

 

[BillJ]

Q'onoS (not "Kronos"!)

Lots of things in life have multiple spellings.

When Scotty resigns, Kirk gives Chekov, who's not an engineer the job of chief engineer instead of the actual assistant chief engineer, a serious mistake,

Anton Yelchin is one of the stars. Stars do things in movies, no matter how illogical. Been that way since the dawn of cinema.

He willingly partners with Khan against his better experienced first officer's advice,

What exactly was he suppose to do? Wait for Marcus to finish off the Enterprise? Then he can go to war and kill millions on both sides.

 

[fireproof78]

What did Pike tell him after the alleged maturity he learned from the Nero incident?


In this movie, he shows not repentance for lying about breaking orders. He undertook the mission to find "Harrison" without questioning the morality of it -- much less the fact that firing on Q'onoS (not "Kronos"!) would be an act of war. When Scotty resigns, Kirk gives Chekov, who's not an engineer the job of chief engineer instead of the actual assistant chief engineer, a serious mistake, given how they needed engineering to be run by a qualified officer when the ship shut down. He would've killed his entire crew, except that Scotty saved his behind. He willingly partners with Khan against his better experienced first officer's advice, a war criminal (although not the tyrant that Spock erroneously describes him as), which leads to Khan's kamikaze strike on San Francisco, which had to have killed countless people.

How has he showed that he's ready for the big chair? Just because he wants to do the right thing and comes through on that has no bearing on his qualifications to command the Federation flagship.

Just because "he wants to do the right thing" isn't enough growth?

He was played by Khan and Marcus. How often, especially in TOS, did the crew fall under alien influences, tricksters and the like, and Starfleet Command doesn't immediately remove them from command?

nuKirk made bad decisions, admitted his mistakes and showed humility and growth. Maybe it doesn't warrant command of the flag ship, but I'd at least give him a shot.

 

[BillJ]

nuKirk made bad decisions, admitted his mistakes and showed humility and growth.

As much as I love Prime Jim Kirk, it is a mystery to me how he stayed in command? Security on the Enterprise always sucked and it was taken over more than once because of it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

We also don't know their fates?

Considering how Star Trek usually works, it was probably ending up being idiots, dead, or evil.

 

[WebLurker]

Lots of things in life have multiple spellings.

Sorry, that typo in the movie is a pet peeve of mine.

Anton Yelchin is one of the stars. Stars do things in movies, no matter how illogical. Been that way since the dawn of cinema.

But if they wanted Chekov to act as chief engineer, they should've given him more off-camera experience then they did by just describing him as having job-shadowed a couple of times. It undermines Kirk's character, showing him to be an idiot.

What exactly was he suppose to do? Wait for Marcus to finish off the Enterprise? Then he can go to war and kill millions on both sides.

Not take Khan with. That was a mistake that got hundreds of civilians killed. Have Khan advise from the brig (in exchange for leniency or something at the trial), and bring an actual security officer on the mission. Someone they can trust.

Just because "he wants to do the right thing" isn't enough growth?

He was played by Khan and Marcus. How often, especially in TOS, did the crew fall under alien influences, tricksters and the like, and Starfleet Command doesn't immediately remove them from command?

Mind-control isn't the same thing; the victim has no agency. Kirk had full control of his actions at the time, so the responsibility of those actions rests with him. For example, he chose to let Khan out of the cell, no one talked him into doing that. Also, those other officers had proven themselves to be competent when things were right. Every single decision Kirk makes when not dealing with the Big Bads of the movie only proves that he does not deserve his post.

nuKirk made bad decisions, admitted his mistakes and showed humility and growth. Maybe it doesn't warrant command of the flag ship, but I'd at least give him a shot.

But he never learns from his mistakes, as the opening from Into Darkness proved (partially since none of his mistakes have consequences for him?). He puts himself above the law at all times. All he's learned is that breaking the rules works out in the end and he gets rewarded for doing it, so he keeps on that path. Give him a shot? He's had his shots and proven that he belongs back at the Academy finishing his last year. Even if he was an absolute professional. having an officer who never graduated and is a year short is an asinine decision from the brass.

 

[BillJ]

Not take Khan with. That was a mistake that got hundreds of civilians killed. Have Khan advise from the brig (in exchange for leniency or something at the trial), and bring an actual security officer on the mission. Someone they can trust.

Then Khan still has no reason to go. Leniency isn't Kirk's to grant, he's a starship captain not a circuit court judge on Earth. Khan is smart enough to know that. Kirk is smart enough to know that Khan will make an attempt to flee or take over, which is why he orders Scott to drop him when they get to the bridge.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes, because if Spock had remained in command, the Enterprise would have rendezvoused with the rest of the fleet in the Laurentian System and Nero would have destroyed Earth. Kirk was the one who insisted that they follow the Narada to Earth and attack.

Counter point. If nuSpock had not rejected Kirk's desire to pursue Nero, Kirk would never have met Spock prime or Scott, and would never have learned about the red matter ship, which Nuspock used to save everyone. Kirk's half-assed plan would have failed and earth would have been destroyed anyway. So really it's a double win for Spock.

 

[BillJ]

So really it's a double win for Spock.

I wouldn't call it a "win". Spock is essentially willing to allow Earth to be destroyed.

 

[BillJ]

Does anyone here believe Prime Jim Kirk would not have went to the Laurentian System under similar circumstances?

 

[Pauln6]

I wouldn't call it a "win". Spock is essentially willing to allow Earth to be destroyed.

Lol yeah they both make bad choices. They don't warn Earth, Andor, Tellar, or any other federation planets. They don't warn Scott. They limp to Earth at warp 3 when other ships within comms range could to get to Earth much faster, even from further away and help evacuate before Nero arrives. There were many logical options that they both fail to consider.

 

[WebLurker]

Then Khan still has no reason to go. Leniency isn't Kirk's to grant, he's a starship captain not a circuit court judge on Earth. Khan is smart enough to know that. Kirk is smart enough to know that Khan will make an attempt to flee or take over, which is why he orders Scott to drop him when they get to the bridge.

The question I have is why was it ever a good idea to bring Khan in the first place? (It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, so I don't remember how the decision was reached.)

 

[BillJ]

The question I have is why was it ever a good idea to bring Khan in the first place? (It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, so I don't remember how the decision was reached.)

Khan knows the Vengeance.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, that typo in the movie is a pet peeve of mine.

Kronos is the phonetic spelling of the Klingon home planet in English. I have the Star Trek Encyclopedia

But if they wanted Chekov to act as chief engineer, they should've given him more off-camera experience then they did by just describing him as having job-shadowed a couple of times. It undermines Kirk's character, showing him to be an idiot.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that Kirk was myopic and revenge driven at killing Harrison for Pike's death. Kirk values loyalty above all else and expects it in return. When Scotty doesn't give it, he turns to Chekov.

Not take Khan with. That was a mistake that got hundreds of civilians killed. Have Khan advise from the brig (in exchange for leniency or something at the trial), and bring an actual security officer on the mission. Someone they can trust.

Khan holds all the cards though. He knows that Kirk won't randomly kill his crew, like Marcus, and he knows that Kirk doesn't know anything about the Vengeance. So, Khan could simply refuse to cooperate and the Enterprise would be stuck.

Mind-control isn't the same thing; the victim has no agency. Kirk had full control of his actions at the time, so the responsibility of those actions rests with him. For example, he chose to let Khan out of the cell, no one talked him into doing that. Also, those other officers had proven themselves to be competent when things were right. Every single decision Kirk makes when not dealing with the Big Bads of the movie only proves that he does not deserve his post.

Every single one?

But he never learns from his mistakes, as the opening from Into Darkness proved (partially since none of his mistakes have consequences for him?). He puts himself above the law at all times. All he's learned is that breaking the rules works out in the end and he gets rewarded for doing it, so he keeps on that path. Give him a shot? He's had his shots and proven that he belongs back at the Academy finishing his last year. Even if he was an absolute professional. having an officer who never graduated and is a year short is an asinine decision from the brass.

No, he doesn't. By the end of STID he has learned a lot more.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Sorry, that typo in the movie is a pet peeve of mine.

There's no reason both spellings can't be applicable.

The Kronos spelling actually predates Qo'noS and was the first spelling of the name given to the Klingon homeworld, at least in the script:

The name of the Klingon homeworld was first mentioned in The Undiscovered Country, in which it is identified as Kronos (spelled that way in the film's script). The spelling "Qo'noS" was subsequently devised by Marc Okrand for Star Trek: The Next Generation, in order to conform to his previously developed rules of Klingon orthography. In Klingonese, Kronos One would be written Qo'noS wa', but MA uses the script spelling for this ship.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kronos_One

For a real world example, here we call the country Greece (which is of Latin origin), but the Greeks refer to it as Hellas or Elleda and refer to themselves as Hellenes, and the official name of the country is the Hellenic Republic.

So there's no reason why the English transliteration can't be Kronos, the official name in Klingonese can't be Qo'noS, and the unofficial name can't be Kling like some of the old peripheral materials used to call it.

Counter point. If nuSpock had not rejected Kirk's desire to pursue Nero, Kirk would never have met Spock prime or Scott, and would never have learned about the red matter ship, which Nuspock used to save everyone. Kirk's half-assed plan would have failed and earth would have been destroyed anyway. So really it's a double win for Spock.

One's a fortuitous set of circumstances that Spock couldn't have possibly known about in advance, and the other is a deliberate choice that saved the planet.