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Did JJ ruin Kirk?

I imagine both the Enterprise and Earth communication satellites made that link up possible. And, no, I don't need to be told that's what was happening.

It really wasn't suppose to be cool or clever, it was a frontal assault on Nero's ship.
Yeah I struggle to understand how the satellite thing could work so far into klingon space. Even with mobile phones being so versatile I still struggle to accept that communicators should be more than short range devices. I'm stuck in my ways. They would certainly need to use the ships comms as a relay but then I guess they could have used Scotty's comms as a relay on delta vega.
 
Well, there was always talk about a subspace radio network in various shows. Perhaps Starfleet set up a more elaborate radio network in the wake of fears of Romulan incursion. After Nero's attack on the Kelvin, Starfleet seems to be far more concerned about intelligence and monitoring.

My general impression is that Starfleet devoted a lot more research in to weapons and intelligence technologies and less on transporter technology.
 
Yeah the issue is that we should accept that Kirk the jerk is different because his life is different but then accept that his leadership qualities are as worthwhile (or at least as appreciated by his peers) as older Kirk prime. Young Kirk prime made mistakes too but nobody promoted him to captain until he was ready. It's like giving a loaded gun to a five year old.


Well said. He was given command too quickly. Prime Kirk had to serve for sometime to get Captain. He was tested by the time he took the Enterprise. The Kelvin being destroyed must have changed the way Starfleet promotes. That's the only reason I can think why they would promote a cadet after one mission. A cadet that just days before was cheating on the Kobyashi Maru and arrogantly chided a bunch of Admirals and NuSpock about it was suddenly given the command of a Starship. I think we saw the results of NuStarfleet promoting NuKirk after one mission.
 
Well said. He was given command too quickly. Prime Kirk had to serve for sometime to get Captain. He was tested by the time he took the Enterprise. The Kelvin being destroyed must have changed the way Starfleet promotes. That's the only reason I can think why they would promote a cadet after one mission. A cadet that just days before was cheating on the Kobyashi Maru and arrogantly chided a bunch of Admirals and NuSpock about it was suddenly given the command of a Starship. I think we saw the results of NuStarfleet promoting NuKirk after one mission.
This harks back to my Idiocracy comment. There is no reason to assume that 23rd century humans might not have evolved to be less professional, more contemplative, and more naive so that Kirk really is so unusual to warrant a rapid promotion. It does rather contradict TOS and TNG though where you have officers like Shelby and Jellico.
 
Well said. He was given command too quickly. Prime Kirk had to serve for sometime to get Captain. He was tested by the time he took the Enterprise. The Kelvin being destroyed must have changed the way Starfleet promotes. That's the only reason I can think why they would promote a cadet after one mission. A cadet that just days before was cheating on the Kobyashi Maru and arrogantly chided a bunch of Admirals and NuSpock about it was suddenly given the command of a Starship. I think we saw the results of NuStarfleet promoting NuKirk after one mission.
And then he was to be demoted. The only reason he ended up back in command was Marcus was sending him on a suicide mission. If I were to add in the conspiracy theory vibe then I would say Marcus was already Chief of Starfleet Operations and approved Kirk's promotion for his own purposes.

This is something that I have thought on in the past couple of days and have finally been able to put it down. It will be a bit long, but hopefully you'll read it all, everyone :)

First of all, Kirk's rapid promotion is not shown as being something we should automatically celebrate. His leadership qualities are there, but raw and requiring refinement. Personally, I think the fact that he was promoted at the end of 09 was a mistake, and that it should have either ended with a montage of Kirk receiving decoration after decoration and then being promoted to Captain, or serving as first officer under Pike.

That said, the idea that Kirk, as a cadet, can't be promoted is one that doesn't fit in with some of the other Star Trek works. I mean, Saavik is not treated as a cadet, but carries the rank of Lieutenant and is treated as a member of the crew and the chain of command. Red Squad's cadet leader was also field promoted by the Captain and made an acting officer. The results might not have been stellar, but it happened.

Cadets at Starfleet Academy don't seem to be treated like modern US Navy cadets. Instead, they appear to be able to be inserted into active duty as Starfleet (and the plot) needs. McCoy goes from a 3rd year cadet to chief medical officer, without seemingly a hiccup, and keeps his responsibilities. Saavik, similarly, also is placed on a ship at commissioned rank without any additional training or schooling.

Now, before the arguments start, yes, his rapid promotion to captain was too fast, but I also see it more in line with Marcus' plan to have a ship to use to start his war and a captain who would be easily persuaded to act rashly.

As an aside, Starfleet brass has not always had the best track record of making great decisions. TOS was a mixed bag as for every competent flag officer (Stone, Mendez) you have one that was incompetent, a paper pushing bureaucrat or inept. Even Admiral Kirk in TMP is a bit of a jerk to Captain Decker. If that story had happened in reverse, with Captain Kirk and Admiral Decker, Decker would be painted as more of an antagonist to our competent hero.

Finally, I agree that we saw the results of Kirk's promotion and the subsequent fallout. But, after he willingly sacrifices his life for his crew, what lesson would he learn being sent back to the Academy?
 
Finally, I agree that we saw the results of Kirk's promotion and the subsequent fallout. But, after he willingly sacrifices his life for his crew, what lesson would he learn being sent back to the Academy?
Not to mention that there was a time gap between Kirk's recovery, and the Rechristening at the end of the film where any retraining could have taken place. The impression I got from STID though was that the Enterprise wasn't exactly being used as a normal ship in the fleet. It seemed more like they were still in some form of training, or testing, for participation in the five year mission program which would have a whole set of different qualifications from regular Starfleet duties. Hence, Kirk and Spock reporting to Pike at the Academy rather than H.Q, and blah blah blah.
 
I think some of these comments are valid but even taking that into account, the Enterprise is dubbed the federation flagship, twice as big and twice as cool as the TOS Enterprise. It still feels too great a responsibility for a cadet Captain.

McCoy was already a fully qualified and experienced doctor so he would graduate with a rank if at least a lieutenant but there is evidence that command cadets can also graduate with ranks of lieutenant too, although in many cases it is not clear whether they are simply officers returning to the academy for advanced training rather than fresh cadets. Kirk's reaction to saavik is silly either way. Clearly she would be qualified to fly the ship.
 
McCoy was already a fully qualified and experienced doctor so he would graduate with a rank if at least a lieutenant but there is evidence that command cadets can also graduate with ranks of lieutenant too, although in many cases it is not clear whether they are simply officers returning to the academy for advanced training rather than fresh cadets. Kirk's reaction to saavik is silly either way. Clearly she would be qualified to fly the ship.
In fairness, Kirk was also a Lieutenant (example) in the 2009 movie, so he might be more in the same category as McCoy. The real problem would then be a lack of info on what he was up to prior to getting beaten half to death in a bar.
 
In fairness, Kirk was also a Lieutenant (example) in the 2009 movie, so he might be more in the same category as McCoy. The real problem would then be a lack of info on what he was up to prior to getting beaten half to death in a bar.
I think Kirk Prime spent time at the Academy as an instructor but I'm not sure that he definitely graduated as a lieutenant.
 
I think some of these comments are valid but even taking that into account, the Enterprise is dubbed the federation flagship, twice as big and twice as cool as the TOS Enterprise. It still feels too great a responsibility for a cadet Captain.

McCoy was already a fully qualified and experienced doctor so he would graduate with a rank if at least a lieutenant but there is evidence that command cadets can also graduate with ranks of lieutenant too, although in many cases it is not clear whether they are simply officers returning to the academy for advanced training rather than fresh cadets. Kirk's reaction to saavik is silly either way. Clearly she would be qualified to fly the ship.

Yeah I think NuKirk was supposed to be about 22 or 23 when he took over the NuEnterprise. That's like giving the command of a air craft carrier to a 23 year old cadet because he saved the ship from a attack. That cadet would just be doing his job. The fast promotion of NuKirk was one of the biggest problems I had with ST09
 
I agree that it is a big problem, but it doesn't ruin the film for me, mostly because they address it next film.

Also, there is this constant one-to-one comparison of contemporary naval cadets and Starfleet cadets, which I do not think is fair. The Federation, and Starfleet, operate on a very structured society model, at least in TOS. I can't expect Starfleet cadets training to look like Annapolis graduates.
 
Yeah I think NuKirk was supposed to be about 22 or 23 when he took over the NuEnterprise. That's like giving the command of a air craft carrier to a 23 year old cadet because he saved the ship from a attack. That cadet would just be doing his job. The fast promotion of NuKirk was one of the biggest problems I had with ST09

Just to be clear, Kirk was 25 when he saved the Earth and was rewarded with the captaincy of the Enterprise. He was born in 2233, and the Narada attack happened in 2258. In a deleted scene, it says that Spock was born in 2230, making him 27-28. I know these facts won't change any minds about anything, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

~FS
 
Just to be clear, Kirk was 25 when he saved the Earth and was rewarded with the captaincy of the Enterprise. He was born in 2233, and the Narada attack happened in 2258. In a deleted scene, it says that Spock was born in 2230, making him 27-28. I know these facts won't change any minds about anything, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

~FS


Yeah 25 is real young. Also he gets the NuEnterprise back within a week of losing it in the second movie. Though this may be due to Marcus's plan because he knew it would be easy to smack down young arrogant NuKirk.
 
Yeah 25 is real young. Also he gets the NuEnterprise back within a week of losing it in the second movie. Though this may be due to Marcus's plan because he knew it would be easy to smack down young arrogant NuKirk.
"Smack down?" Interesting choice of words. I would be more inclined to say easily manipulated to Marcus' end. Kirk was young and brash enough to go on the mission without question, and even ignore Scotty's legitimate concerns. I don't think it is a far stretch of the imagination to think that Marcus figured that Kirk could be easily used for his war mongering.
 
"Smack down?" Interesting choice of words. I would be more inclined to say easily manipulated to Marcus' end. Kirk was young and brash enough to go on the mission without question, and even ignore Scotty's legitimate concerns. I don't think it is a far stretch of the imagination to think that Marcus figured that Kirk could be easily used for his war mongering.

Yeah being "easily manipulated" would be another way to put it. Marcus really knew how to push NuKirks buttons.
 
Yeah being "easily manipulated" would be another way to put it. Marcus really knew how to push NuKirks buttons.

Well, he knows how to push people's button in general it would seem. Playing the whole "Pike got you to join card" before heading down the road of sending the Enterprise to Klingon space. He jabbed Kirk in a sensitive spot.
 
^^
Indeed. Marcus, of all the corrupt admirals we have seen, is far more manipulative of people's emotions and how to use them. Quite interesting.
 
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