Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[fireproof78]

I think that the First Contact example is implied in-universe to be a predestination paradox; the fallout of the Borg's time travel leads to "Regeneration" (ENT), where they send the Collective the coordinates of Earth (we know from "The Neutral Zone" [TNG] and "The Gift" [VOY] that the Borg were aware of humanity and operating around the Alpha and Beta Quadrants -- a long way from their home space -- years before the official first contact). We also get this little gem from "Relativity" (VOY):

I was always under the impression that Q had given away humanity's existence to the Borg.

I haven't seen any of the original Sela episodes, but it's my understanding that the crew didn't really believe Sela's story. In this case, I could see the argument that it "should've" been fixed, but how would they do that, given that they weren't aware of the problem in the first place? (It also seems to be a "close enough" thing anyways.)

"Close enough" counts in time travel?

Well, here's the thing. When the Guardian first starts showing them the places they can travel with his(?) abilities, he says: "Behold. A gateway to your own past, if you wish." Meaning, he's showing them the past of their timeline, the one they're in right now. But, when McCoy runs through the portal:


Kirk then sums up the plot of the episode:



Then, after fixing things, the crew come back and the Guardian says: "Time has resumed its shape. All is as it was before." So, I think there's evidence that this instance is where the timeline changed around the characters and they need to reset it, not them being shuffled off into a parallel universe, the way the Kelvin timeline supposedly works.

Exactly. It was their timeline, their reality, and they needed to restore it to it's "shape." If this was the case in the Kelvin, Mirror or "Universe B" should be restored to their "shape."

Fair enough.

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that the storage room wasn't designed with the destruction of the planet in mind. I also got the impression that the Vulcans weren't going there for safety, but to rescue stuff, then get away from there.

Fair enough, but, it doesn't feel well explain.

No prob, don't worry about it.

I'll try not too.

Yeah, I'll buy that. The thing is, is that in the past, most time travel incidents that change history overwrite the original timeline, and on a surface examination, there's nothing to suggest that this wouldn't be the case here. So, that's where I feel the question lies; can we justify the exception? And different people see differently on that count.

Clearly, given this back and forth. I think it can be justified.

But the larger ship sizes were seen with the Kelvin, which predated the time travel accident. So, Starfleet was clearly experimenting with larger ships before.

Experimenting with, absolutely. Given the fact that the Romulan War had recently ended and Starfleet was still winding down from that. Instead of scaling back their fleet, leading to TOS Constitution class ships, Starfleet continued to scale up, researching technologies and weapons that the Kelvin had been able to use to at least counter Narada's weapons.

I suppose. I have to admit that I'm not recalling a specific evidence for or against, now that I think about it.

Maybe, although that scene still doesn't make that much sense to me.

That's fair. I'm trying to quality why it makes sense to me. The transporter seems to rely far more on the operator and their ability to make adjustments, similar to Kirk in TMP, among other examples, than the computer doing the heavy lifting.

Guess so.

Well, I don't like speaking for the writers.

Interesting.

Yep.

Fair enough. I happen to like both the characters and the trappings, so that's why I don't like them monkeying around with it (the fact that the characters feel a lot different then they did in the original stories doesn't help). I don't recall what you said about the Star Wars prequels. (I happen to like them, personally.)

I can understand that. If I don't buy in to the characters then it is harder and harder to enjoy the films, though i do try, which is my general attempt with the prequels. I don't think the characters are done well enough in the PT to enage me enough to care about them in any more than a purely superficial way.

To be fair, I love the trappings of science fiction, Star Trek specifically. I think TOS is a very classy looking starship design, and the overall Starfleet look as envolved in an interesting look to it. I like transporters, and phasers, and the like, and have plenty of technical manuals. I love the SW films (all of them) and all the technical details.

Fair enough. I kind of liked Starkiller Base, more for the stuff that happened on it (Rey and Finn's reunion, Han confronting Kylo Ren, and the lightsaber duel) than the idea of it being another spherical space gun, I will concede. Also, given the First Order's worship of the Empire, I could understand that they might copy them a bit. And on top of that, the Star Wars movies have always paralleld each other with recurring ideas, homages, references, running jokes, meta humor, etc., so it didn't seem that out of place. So, between that, the fact that felt more like a backdrop to the main stories with the characters being sent on their life trajectories into the future, and the fact that there were differences, I wasn't bothered, but I can understand why others would be.

But, those moments could have happened on any base. My frustration comes from the fact that it is another giant, planet destroying weapon. I get the parallels of the films, but, for as fresh as the characters felt, the plot points, especially with the final third act of the film and Poe's "trench run" felt way too much of a retread. Also, Starkiller appears, on the surface of it, to be quite a stupid concept. It draws its power from the sun. What happens when the sun is used up? Never mind how the weapon works to destroy multiple planets.

Also, the SW films have not always paralleled each other. In my opinion, the PT stands apart because it focuses a bit more on the political actions, interwoven with the mythological underpinnings from the OT. ESB, rather famously, actually moves away from the quintessential "Hero's Journey" of ANH and shows the rather desperate fight of the heroes. ROTJ is really one the few that retreads the beats, which is why Starkiller feels so repetitive, especially given the chronology of watching the films.

I also am frustrated by the fact that our heroes spent all the OT trying to restore the Republic and then the Republic is destroyed without comment or introduction. It's Alderaan, only worse, because we actually saw our heroes fighting for it.

I'm confused. You're annoyed that he wasn't killed off or that they were considering it?

He was dead. Oscar Issac fought for the character to come back. I'm annoyed that he dies, and then, when they decided to bring him back, they can't be bothered to write in an explanation of where he was?

Maybe, but that wasn't the impression I got.

What was your impression then? I mean, why run if you don't think you can escape?

Where was that tunnel effect? I don't recall it.

It's not a tunnel effect like Abrams' style, but the visual reference point is similar in both TNG when the warp bubble forms (we see it from the perspective of looking out a window) and in TMP. I also read somewhere that DS9 showed a similar effect. The ship doesn't stay in the "tunnel" like in Abrams' films, but there is a bluish flash as part of the jump to warp, which makes sense since the warp bubble has to form.

I don't have a problem with the fight itself, just the visuals.

Again, mileage will vary. I think that it can work within known Trek tech.

Fair enough, if you like it.

Well, I like it, but that isn't my only point. I don't think it breaks previously established tech rules either.

Multiplying by fives?

I'm going to guess he started with twos

 

[WebLurker]

Weird, I remember replying to this. Oh, well.

I was always under the impression that Q had given away humanity's existence to the Borg.

Even if you don't think that First Contact and "Regeneration" (ENT) establish a predestination paradox for the Borg finding humanity, the incident in "The Neutral Zone" (TNG) was indicated to be the Borg's handiwork (pre-Q incident) and Seven of Nine's backstory sets her assimilation prior to the Enterprise-D's official first contact.

"Close enough" counts in time travel?

In some cases, sure.

Exactly. It was their timeline, their reality, and they needed to restore it to it's "shape." If this was the case in the Kelvin, Mirror or "Universe B" should be restored to their "shape."

But the mirror universe was already a free-standing parallel universe. The Kelvin timeline is not.

Fair enough, but, it doesn't feel well explain.

Fair enough.

Clearly, given this back and forth. I think it can be justified.

Good point.

Experimenting with, absolutely. Given the fact that the Romulan War had recently ended and Starfleet was still winding down from that. Instead of scaling back their fleet, leading to TOS Constitution class ships, Starfleet continued to scale up, researching technologies and weapons that the Kelvin had been able to use to at least counter Narada's weapons.

Good point (although I have heard it pointed out the more primitive Kelvin seems to have better defenses then the more advanced fleet at Vulcan ).

That's fair. I'm trying to quality why it makes sense to me. The transporter seems to rely far more on the operator and their ability to make adjustments, similar to Kirk in TMP, among other examples, than the computer doing the heavy lifting.

Not sure I completely agree, but a fair point.

Well, I don't like speaking for the writers.

Probably a good idea.

I can understand that. If I don't buy in to the characters then it is harder and harder to enjoy the films, though i do try, which is my general attempt with the prequels. I don't think the characters are done well enough in the PT to enage me enough to care about them in any more than a purely superficial way.

I didn't have a big problem with the prequel cast, although I will concede that I like the Sequel and Original characters better.

To be fair, I love the trappings of science fiction, Star Trek specifically. I think TOS is a very classy looking starship design, and the overall Starfleet look as envolved in an interesting look to it. I like transporters, and phasers, and the like, and have plenty of technical manuals. I love the SW films (all of them) and all the technical details.

Yeah, the TOS design was great and I'm not sure that the Kelvin timeline did that great a job recreating the style.

But, those moments could have happened on any base. My frustration comes from the fact that it is another giant, planet destroying weapon. I get the parallels of the films, but, for as fresh as the characters felt, the plot points, especially with the final third act of the film and Poe's "trench run" felt way too much of a retread. Also, Starkiller appears, on the surface of it, to be quite a stupid concept. It draws its power from the sun. What happens when the sun is used up? Never mind how the weapon works to destroy multiple planets.

I think the official explanation is that the planet can move from star to star. The novelizations add some technical detials (although there is some conflict with what's on-screen, so you do have to read selectively to get the full picture).

Also, the SW films have not always paralleled each other. In my opinion, the PT stands apart because it focuses a bit more on the political actions, interwoven with the mythological underpinnings from the OT. ESB, rather famously, actually moves away from the quintessential "Hero's Journey" of ANH and shows the rather desperate fight of the heroes. ROTJ is really one the few that retreads the beats, which is why Starkiller feels so repetitive, especially given the chronology of watching the films.

Well, there is a lot of rhyming, even between TMP and AHN, not to mention TMP and TFA, or ESB with ATTC, and ROTS with ROTJ. Maybe the reason I didn't mind was that the new characters and locations made everything fresh enough for me?

I also am frustrated by the fact that our heroes spent all the OT trying to restore the Republic and then the Republic is destroyed without comment or introduction. It's Alderaan, only worse, because we actually saw our heroes fighting for it.

Well, we'll have to see how much is left come Episode VIII. I actually didn't mind, since it showed that things change over time, and there's no guarantees.

He was dead. Oscar Issac fought for the character to come back. I'm annoyed that he dies, and then, when they decided to bring him back, they can't be bothered to write in an explanation of where he was?

The full story is in the novelization. (I didn't mind, although I'll admit if he'd been dead for real, I wouldn't have minded, either.)

What was your impression then? I mean, why run if you don't think you can escape?

My impression was that Kirk thought there was no way the Vengeance could do anything while the Enterprise was in subspace, which doesn't make sense.

It's not a tunnel effect like Abrams' style, but the visual reference point is similar in both TNG when the warp bubble forms (we see it from the perspective of looking out a window) and in TMP. I also read somewhere that DS9 showed a similar effect. The ship doesn't stay in the "tunnel" like in Abrams' films, but there is a bluish flash as part of the jump to warp, which makes sense since the warp bubble has to form.

I'll have to take a look for myself, but I've watched a lot of those shows and have never seen anything like what Abrams pulled out of his hat.

Again, mileage will vary. I think that it can work within known Trek tech.

Okay.

Well, I like it, but that isn't my only point. I don't think it breaks previously established tech rules either.

Fair enough.

I'm going to guess he started with twos

Then inflation kicked in?

 

[fireproof78]

Weird, I remember replying to this. Oh, well.

It happens,

Even if you don't think that First Contact and "Regeneration" (ENT) establish a predestination paradox for the Borg finding humanity, the incident in "The Neutral Zone" (TNG) was indicated to be the Borg's handiwork (pre-Q incident) and Seven of Nine's backstory sets her assimilation prior to the Enterprise-D's official first contact.

Good point.

In some cases, sure.

I don't remember those rules being established.

But the mirror universe was already a free-standing parallel universe. The Kelvin timeline is not.

But, it is still treated as a free-standing parallel universe or branch that now exists in its own right, not an aberration to be fixed.

Fair enough.

Good point.

Thank you.

Good point (although I have heard it pointed out the more primitive Kelvin seems to have better defenses then the more advanced fleet at Vulcan ).

That seems to be the case, though the Enterprise is able to stand up to it fairly well once they are aware of the threat. The rest of the fleet is caught by surprise.

Not sure I completely agree, but a fair point.

The transporter is always an odd piece of tech so figuring out the variations is not very precise.

Probably a good idea.

Yeah, always bad to assume.

I didn't have a big problem with the prequel cast, although I will concede that I like the Sequel and Original characters better.

That is a big sticking point for me. The characters don't work in the PT for me, and that detracts from the overall film.

Yeah, the TOS design was great and I'm not sure that the Kelvin timeline did that great a job recreating the style.

I think they did great.

I think the official explanation is that the planet can move from star to star. The novelizations add some technical detials (although there is some conflict with what's on-screen, so you do have to read selectively to get the full picture).

Yeah, there is a lot of conflicting details, even in the novel, the online databank and other sources. Sam Witwer, on the Rebel Force Cast commentary, added a take that I like a little more. That at Starkiller's core IS a hyperspace window that is able to draw upon stars from great distances and uses hyperspace to fire its weapon. The way he describes make it sound so much more fearsome than how it appears on screen.

For me, Starkiller base is probably the weakest point of the whole film.

Well, there is a lot of rhyming, even between TMP and AHN, not to mention TMP and TFA, or ESB with ATTC, and ROTS with ROTJ. Maybe the reason I didn't mind was that the new characters and locations made everything fresh enough for me?

See, the locations, the technology, the ships, and the rest work really well. The characters and the story are too thin.

Well, we'll have to see how much is left come Episode VIII. I actually didn't mind, since it showed that things change over time, and there's no guarantees.

Certainly and I don't mind it being destroyed in the sense that governments change. There are plenty of real world parallels to the First Order's rise. I just feel that the New Republic pretty much meant nothing.

The full story is in the novelization. (I didn't mind, although I'll admit if he'd been dead for real, I wouldn't have minded, either.)

Ok. But, I shouldn't have to read a book to understand a movie. I mean, many have argued that Nero's backstory from "Countdown" comic should have been included in ST 09 in order to make more sense to them. By this argument, reading the comic should make watching the movie that much better.

My impression was that Kirk thought there was no way the Vengeance could do anything while the Enterprise was in subspace, which doesn't make sense.

Given that the only one who comments about being safe at warp is Khan to McCoy's remark. My impression, upon rewatching the scene, was that Kirk just wanted to get to Earth and let Starfleet sort it out from there.

I think Kirk figured that Marcus didn't expect their warp drive to work and that they would at least be able to get back to Earth before there was an issue. The Vengeance's ability to catch up, merge warp fields and disable Enterprise adds an incredible visual to something that has largely been talked about in the series.

I'll have to take a look for myself, but I've watched a lot of those shows and have never seen anything like what Abrams pulled out of his hat.

It's not identical, no. But, I think it bears a similiar enough apperance to the warp bubble being formed to be included as an expansion of the concept of that formation.

Okay.



Fair enough.

Thanks.

Then inflation kicked in?

Hey, you got to keep that reputation alive some how.

 

[WebLurker]

Good point.

Thank you.

I don't remember those rules being established.

I was thinking of stuff, like the whale movie, where little details in the past are changed, but they seem to have no effect on the timeline overall.

But, it is still treated as a free-standing parallel universe or branch that now exists in its own right, not an aberration to be fixed.

Well, it would, since the filmmakers want a new timeline to tell stories in. The question I'm wondering about is if, only looking at what we see onscreen, should this be the approach used, and I'm not sure it is; there's no indication onscreen that the old timeline survived (even if we can make theories that would fit the facts), so it seems like an "aberration," given that similar stories in the past are about the characters trying to restore the original events, or trying to change it on purpose to advert a bad future.

Thank you.

No prob.

That seems to be the case, though the Enterprise is able to stand up to it fairly well once they are aware of the threat. The rest of the fleet is caught by surprise.

Hmm. Could be (although the hero and main villain's ships always have more plot armor than the rank and file extras do ).

The transporter is always an odd piece of tech so figuring out the variations is not very precise.

That is a big sticking point for me. The characters don't work in the PT for me, and that detracts from the overall film.

Okay.

I did like young Obi-Wan a lot. Qui-Gon Jinn was pretty good too. Padme had some better moments than others (I think TMP was her best, though).

I think they did great.

Fair enough if you like it. To me, it just looked incredibly faked, like the backgrounds were green-screened in. I think they were trying to meld the '60s stuff with Apple-like modern designs and got the worse of both.

(The uniforms were generally okay, although the female miniskirt uniforms looked a little too much like nightshirts rather than actual tops with an attached skirt. The new phasers were okay, I'm indifferent to the communicators, but the bridge stuff was way too white. It was painful to look at and the heavy graphic displays and moving images were distracting from the characters. I also miss the TOS-y stuff, like the microscope viewer, the fewer work stations, and the actual viewscreen instead of the window.)

Yeah, there is a lot of conflicting details, even in the novel, the online databank and other sources. Sam Witwer, on the Rebel Force Cast commentary, added a take that I like a little more. That at Starkiller's core IS a hyperspace window that is able to draw upon stars from great distances and uses hyperspace to fire its weapon. The way he describes make it sound so much more fearsome than how it appears on screen.

Interesting.

The movie has seniority, and the other stuff is canon, except where it contradicts the movie. So, we know for a fact that at the center, the base was building up dark energy, which I don't know how that would affect the hyperspace window theory.

For me, Starkiller base is probably the weakest point of the whole film.

Fair enough.

See, the locations, the technology, the ships, and the rest work really well. The characters and the story are too thin.

Are you saying that the TFA locations, the technology (except for Starkiller Base), the ships, etc. worked, while the TFA characters and the story didn't? I think that the characters actually hold their own against the previous ones, although I will concede that we'll know better when the rest of the movies come out. However, I think when comparing TFA with just ANH and TMP, the TFA characters do have the best of both worlds. The likability and charm of ANH is there, but they also have TMP's setup for a longer character arc.

Certainly and I don't mind it being destroyed in the sense that governments change. There are plenty of real world parallels to the First Order's rise. I just feel that the New Republic pretty much meant nothing.

Okay. There are some tie-in materials set between ROTJ and TFA that delve into the New Republic's existence, if you're interested in that era.

Ok. But, I shouldn't have to read a book to understand a movie. I mean, many have argued that Nero's backstory from "Countdown" comic should have been included in ST 09 in order to make more sense to them. By this argument, reading the comic should make watching the movie that much better.

I think I read Countdown and as I recall, it made the movie even more confusing (IMHO). Here's the thing though; Countdown is not canon, Star Wars tie-ins are, and (excusing contradictions with the movies) are of equal canonical weight as the movies themselves (not counting the pre-Disney tie-ins now branded as "Legends," which are not canon).

Also, the movie does address the question, as Poe offers a brief explanation, the novels just fill in the gaps. So, am I arguing that "reading the comic [or whatever] should make watching the movie [TFA] that much better." Well, yeah, I guess I am. But, since the entire Star Wars franchise (movies, TV, books, comics, etc.) is designed to not fit together as one single whole, it's an automatic improvement.

So, I guess it didn't bother me, but I can kind of see where you're coming from.

Given that the only one who comments about being safe at warp is Khan to McCoy's remark. My impression, upon rewatching the scene, was that Kirk just wanted to get to Earth and let Starfleet sort it out from there.

I think Kirk figured that Marcus didn't expect their warp drive to work and that they would at least be able to get back to Earth before there was an issue. The Vengeance's ability to catch up, merge warp fields and disable Enterprise adds an incredible visual to something that has largely been talked about in the series.

Okay. Still don't like the visuals very much, but fair enough.

It's not identical, no. But, I think it bears a similiar enough apperance to the warp bubble being formed to be included as an expansion of the concept of that formation.

Okay.

Thanks.

Sure.

Hey, you got to keep that reputation alive some how.

Being a wee bit conservative, at least on paper, never hurts.

 

[Norsehound]

Ok, my kind of thread. A discussion of multiple characters, exposing our values of the Trek universe, keeping it respectful, and people DO respond to you. I have to jump in here!

William Shatner's portrayal of James T. Kirk was as the youngest Captain in Starfleet, at 32....

Chris Pine's portrayal of James T. Kirk is as a child lost--a rebel without a cause--needing Starfleet to give him a cause.

... So, the central question has yet to be answered: what is he compensating for? Will he be tempered when he figures out what he's running from? Why is he an adrenaline junkie?

So, that's my take on the two characters. They are not the same.

Good thought!

I think Pine's Kirk could still be motivated by trying to live up to his father's shadow. Beyond sums this up, and while he comes out of Beyond with a renewed motivation to keep exploring the unknown, Kirk might feel he is not living up to the reputation of his father that he perceives. In other words, Kirk's standards are high because the shadow of his father gets longer and longer the more successful Kirk is in his career. Three years into his five year mission and he's still mopey about his father having more legitimate reasons for being in Starfleet than Kirk himself.

If they do it right, George Kirk visiting James in the future could be a good way for Kirk to reconcile this conflict and grow further, knowing that he has done his father proud.

 

[fireproof78]

Thank you.

You're welcome

I was thinking of stuff, like the whale movie, where little details in the past are changed, but they seem to have no effect on the timeline overall.

That's a good point. Similarly, Sisko created a temporal paradox by assuming the identity of Gabriel Bell.

Well, it would, since the filmmakers want a new timeline to tell stories in. The question I'm wondering about is if, only looking at what we see onscreen, should this be the approach used, and I'm not sure it is; there's no indication onscreen that the old timeline survived (even if we can make theories that would fit the facts), so it seems like an "aberration," given that similar stories in the past are about the characters trying to restore the original events, or trying to change it on purpose to advert a bad future.

Given the general lack of awareness of other timelines, I would have to take Spock Prime's inaction on attempting to restore it as a clue to it being alternate rather than an aberration.

No prob.

Hmm. Could be (although the hero and main villain's ships always have more plot armor than the rank and file extras do ).

Hero shields activate!

Okay.

I did like young Obi-Wan a lot. Qui-Gon Jinn was pretty good too. Padme had some better moments than others (I think TMP was her best, though).

Padme definitely shined in TPM. Despite my reservations on that film (as expressed in the TFA thread) I do like Padme. I just wish she stood out more as a character.

Fair enough if you like it. To me, it just looked incredibly faked, like the backgrounds were green-screened in. I think they were trying to meld the '60s stuff with Apple-like modern designs and got the worse of both.

(The uniforms were generally okay, although the female miniskirt uniforms looked a little too much like nightshirts rather than actual tops with an attached skirt. The new phasers were okay, I'm indifferent to the communicators, but the bridge stuff was way too white. It was painful to look at and the heavy graphic displays and moving images were distracting from the characters. I also miss the TOS-y stuff, like the microscope viewer, the fewer work stations, and the actual viewscreen instead of the window.).

"Too white" kind of makes me chuckle a little, given how many futuristic concept artists use white as the primary color (2001, Alien, even Lego sets).

I personally liked all the little details of the screens and they actually look informative, instead of being completely baseless in reality of how GUI work.

Interesting.

The movie has seniority, and the other stuff is canon, except where it contradicts the movie. So, we know for a fact that at the center, the base was building up dark energy, which I don't know how that would affect the hyperspace window theory.

Yeah, it's a weird part of the tech.

Fair enough.

Thanks.

Are you saying that the TFA locations, the technology (except for Starkiller Base), the ships, etc. worked, while the TFA characters and the story didn't? I think that the characters actually hold their own against the previous ones, although I will concede that we'll know better when the rest of the movies come out. However, I think when comparing TFA with just ANH and TMP, the TFA characters do have the best of both worlds. The likability and charm of ANH is there, but they also have TMP's setup for a longer character arc.

That was my mistake and I should have been more clear. I was referring to the PT locations and tech not TFA. I certainly agree that TFA's characters are far better in terms of presentation and characterization than anyone in the PT.

Okay. There are some tie-in materials set between ROTJ and TFA that delve into the New Republic's existence, if you're interested in that era.

Oh, I thoroughly enjoy the books. I just think TFA suffered from a lack of information, especially about the New Republic, which felt like a typo being erased rather than a meaningful organization.

I think I read Countdown and as I recall, it made the movie even more confusing (IMHO). Here's the thing though; Countdown is not canon, Star Wars tie-ins are, and (excusing contradictions with the movies) are of equal canonical weight as the movies themselves (not counting the pre-Disney tie-ins now branded as "Legends," which are not canon).

Also, the movie does address the question, as Poe offers a brief explanation, the novels just fill in the gaps. So, am I arguing that "reading the comic [or whatever] should make watching the movie [TFA] that much better." Well, yeah, I guess I am. But, since the entire Star Wars franchise (movies, TV, books, comics, etc.) is designed to not fit together as one single whole, it's an automatic improvement.

So, I guess it didn't bother me, but I can kind of see where you're coming from.

See, I liked Countdown quite a bit, though I really didn't need Nero's backstory as it informed me enough. So, I'm not sure how it was confusing but that's ok.

Also, in the bolded, did you mean to say that the Star Wars franchise is designed to fit together as a whole? Otherwise, I don't know if I follow.

Okay. Still don't like the visuals very much, but fair enough.

That's fine.

Being a wee bit conservative, at least on paper, never hurts.

Eh, it's all in how you scale it. It sounds more impressive if it's higher

 

[WebLurker]

That's a good point. Similarly, Sisko created a temporal paradox by assuming the identity of Gabriel Bell.

Forgot about that one. Liked that show.

Given the general lack of awareness of other timelines, I would have to take Spock Prime's inaction on attempting to restore it as a clue to it being alternate rather than an aberration.

On the other hand:

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Hero shields activate!

But Captain, they just drain power and the enemy gunners are stormtroopers!

Padme definitely shined in TPM. Despite my reservations on that film (as expressed in the TFA thread) I do like Padme. I just wish she stood out more as a character.

Okay. Anything specific that could've been tuned up.

"Too white" kind of makes me chuckle a little, given how many futuristic concept artists use white as the primary color (2001, Alien, even Lego sets).

You don't say.

I personally liked all the little details of the screens and they actually look informative, instead of being completely baseless in reality of how GUI work.

Okay, but I do have a fondness for the TOS-style interfaces, and really miss that.

Yeah, it's a weird part of the tech.

I guess.

That was my mistake and I should have been more clear. I was referring to the PT locations and tech not TFA. I certainly agree that TFA's characters are far better in terms of presentation and characterization than anyone in the PT.

What was wrong with the prequel tech?

Oh, I thoroughly enjoy the books. I just think TFA suffered from a lack of information, especially about the New Republic, which felt like a typo being erased rather than a meaningful organization.

Fair enough.

See, I liked Countdown quite a bit, though I really didn't need Nero's backstory as it informed me enough. So, I'm not sure how it was confusing but that's ok.

I think the sudden changes with the TNG characters (Worf now with the Klingon Defense Force, Data having overwritten B-4's program, etc.) made it feel like there was a piece missing. I also wish that Riker, Troi, and Crusher had had a chance to appear, since it made the who "TNG passing the baton back to TOS point two" seem incomplete. The idea that the Narada's green squid design was because it was using stolen Borg tech never made that much sense to me (Borg tech looks artificial and usually geometric, never organic).

Also, in the bolded, did you mean to say that the Star Wars franchise is designed to fit together as a whole? Otherwise, I don't know if I follow.

Sorry. Yes I did.

Eh, it's all in how you scale it. It sounds more impressive if it's higher

What, being able to build it in a cave with a box of scraps isn't good enough anymore?