Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[BillJ]

...and last I checked my DVDs are still intact.

You mean JJ Abrams hasn't broken into your house and stolen them?!?

 

[Pauln6]

Spock has a history of disabling Chief Engineers as well, if TWOK is any indication.

Nah Spock disables innocent dudes with 70s moustaches in airlocks and gobby chief medical officers. He might have mind melded with Scott if he'd thought that Scott would survive the radiation exposure I guess.

 

[Vandervecken]

Then order your engineer to do what needs to be done. Don't punch him out so he can't do anything to help anyone.

Agreed.

 

[Amaris]

You mean JJ Abrams hasn't broken into your house and stolen them?!?

He tried, but I blinded him with some lens flares. #hurrhurrjokesfrom2009

 

[fireproof78]

But it's only given lip service. After Pike dies, Kirk is back in command and everything proceeds as if it never happened.

And sent on a suicide mission. As Marcus says "To be fair, I was never going to spare your crew." As others have said Marcus expected Kirk to be reckless and to fire on a sovereign nation and start a war with no thought of the repercussions.

 

[WebLurker]

And sent on a suicide mission. As Marcus says "To be fair, I was never going to spare your crew." As others have said Marcus expected Kirk to be reckless and to fire on a sovereign nation and start a war with no thought of the repercussions.

True, but Kirk still keeps command of the ship and his given the honor of the first five-year mission in Starfleet (at least as far as this timeline is concerned) after all that.

His track record: He's a three-year cadet (who never finished his last year or graduated), he cheated on a very important test (that was having an internal court hearing), disobeyed numerous orders, was given a promotion to captain without any experience to justify the decision, and falsified his logs and expected to not face consequences if found out. Even taking his potential, clear thinking in crises, and willingness to get things done in times of trouble, he's still not a good choice for captain.

 

[Pauln6]

In fairness Kirk does exhibit some admirable leadership qualities but he isn't often displayed as being a good officer. His decisions are rarely measured and reasoned. it's the fact that he's given command of the so-called flagship that's so silly.

 

[Kemaiku]

You mean JJ Abrams hasn't broken into your house and stolen them?!?

So that's where the claw marks on the door came from.

 

[fireproof78]

True, but Kirk still keeps command of the ship and his given the honor of the first five-year mission in Starfleet (at least as far as this timeline is concerned) after all that.

His track record: He's a three-year cadet (who never finished his last year or graduated), he cheated on a very important test (that was having an internal court hearing), disobeyed numerous orders, was given a promotion to captain without any experience to justify the decision, and falsified his logs and expected to not face consequences if found out. Even taking his potential, clear thinking in crises, and willingness to get things done in times of trouble, he's still not a good choice for captain.

I agree that it could have been done better, but I also think that many of the traits and qualities Kirk has shown outweigh his flaws. How many times did Prime Kirk disobey orders? Heck, Prime Kirk stole Federation property and went to a quarantined planet and killed foreign nationals and only got a demotion.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I agree that it could have been done better, but I also think that many of the traits and qualities Kirk has shown outweigh his flaws. How many times did Prime Kirk disobey orders? Heck, Prime Kirk stole Federation property and went to a quarantined planet and killed foreign nationals and only got a demotion.

And don't forget that he blew up said federation property.

 

[Ovation]

It's all very simple--save the planet, get a starship as a reward. Happens in TMP, happens in IV, happens in '09. No need to overthink it. It's "canon".

 

[WebLurker]

I agree that it could have been done better, but I also think that many of the traits and qualities Kirk has shown outweigh his flaws. How many times did Prime Kirk disobey orders? Heck, Prime Kirk stole Federation property and went to a quarantined planet and killed foreign nationals and only got a demotion.

Granted. However, Prime Kirk, by that time, had had enough experience and built up a better reputation (also in an era when Starfleet tended to pull establishes phasers a lot faster and invoke the Prime Directive a lot slower ["Flashback" (VGR)], which Into Darkness establishes is not the case for the Abramsverse Starfleet).

So, I could see prime Kirk being cut more slack, since he'd had time to prove himself to be responsible at normal, where Abramsverse Kirk had none of that.

 

[fireproof78]

Granted. However, Prime Kirk, by that time, had had enough experience and built up a better reputation (also in an era when Starfleet tended to pull establishes phasers a lot faster and invoke the Prime Directive a lot slower ["Flashback" (VGR)], which Into Darkness establishes is not the case for the Abramsverse Starfleet).

So, I could see prime Kirk being cut more slack, since he'd had time to prove himself to be responsible at normal, where Abramsverse Kirk had none of that.

Abramsverse also had greater attrition of officers to draw from and promote. Six ships full of cadets were eliminated in Nero's attack, plus whatever officers were killed in Khan's attack,

While I agree that Abramsverse Kirk doesn't have the credibility that Prime Kirk did, there are other circumstances impacting Starfleet as well. Also, I think that Kirk's demonstration of loyalty and sacrifice might have persuaded the higher ups as well.

 

[WebLurker]

Abramsverse also had greater attrition of officers to draw from and promote. Six ships full of cadets were eliminated in Nero's attack, plus whatever officers were killed in Khan's attack,

While I agree that Abramsverse Kirk doesn't have the credibility that Prime Kirk did, there are other circumstances impacting Starfleet as well. Also, I think that Kirk's demonstration of loyalty and sacrifice might have persuaded the higher ups as well.

But Kirk is just one officer and a proven loose cannon. Abramsverse Spock would be better suited for the job. Why not make him captain. He was the original first officer, after all and already has a proven track record.

 

[Pauln6]

Abramsverse also had greater attrition of officers to draw from and promote. Six ships full of cadets were eliminated in Nero's attack, plus whatever officers were killed in Khan's attack,

While I agree that Abramsverse Kirk doesn't have the credibility that Prime Kirk did, there are other circumstances impacting Starfleet as well. Also, I think that Kirk's demonstration of loyalty and sacrifice might have persuaded the higher ups as well.

But again there are captains and first officers in the laurentian system. Why is an insubordinate cadet worthy of such a promotion to the flagship over them? And would this be a bad time to point out that spock saved earth, Kirk only saved pike.

 

[JKM]

And would this be a bad time to point out that spock saved earth, Kirk only saved pike.

Because it was totally Spock's idea to go after Nero in the first place.

 

[fireproof78]

But Kirk is just one officer and a proven loose cannon. Abramsverse Spock would be better suited for the job. Why not make him captain. He was the original first officer, after all and already has a proven track record.

Spock does not appear to want to be Captain, in either universe.

But again there are captains and first officers in the laurentian system. Why is an insubordinate cadet worthy of such a promotion to the flagship over them? And would this be a bad time to point out that spock saved earth, Kirk only saved pike.

Nepotism. No one said "worthy."

For the record, I don't think Kirk should have been captain at the end of 09. I think he should have been first officer, with the Nibiru mission being his "test cruise" commanding the ship with Pike absent. Kirk's "promotion" in STID is pure machinations on Marcus' part.

 

[WebLurker]

Spock does not appear to want to be Captain, in either universe.

Until Wrath of Khan. (Mirror Spock specifically said he didn't want to be captain, because of the target that would be put on his back.)

Nepotism. No one said "worthy."

For the record, I don't think Kirk should have been captain at the end of 09. I think he should have been first officer, with the Nibiru mission being his "test cruise" commanding the ship with Pike absent.

That's actually not a bad idea, although even first officer might be a little high, but I like the spirit of it.

Kirk's "promotion" in STID is pure machinations on Marcus' part.

I think the problem is that Kirk never really shows that much maturity over the story. Some, but not enough for it to make sense that Starfleet would keep him in such an important position.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

And would this be a bad time to point out that spock saved earth, Kirk only saved pike.

Yes, because if Spock had remained in command, the Enterprise would have rendezvoused with the rest of the fleet in the Laurentian System and Nero would have destroyed Earth. Kirk was the one who insisted that they follow the Narada to Earth and attack.

 

[fireproof78]

Until Wrath of Khan. (Mirror Spock specifically said he didn't want to be captain, because of the target that would be put on his back.)



That's actually not a bad idea, although even first officer might be a little high, but I like the spirit of it.



I think the problem is that Kirk never really shows that much maturity over the story. Some, but not enough for it to make sense that Starfleet would keep him in such an important position.

Well, that's the beauty of these films. They are not showing Kirk being perfect (aside from his hair) but learning and growing. Star Trek Beyond will be an interesting test to see if Kirk has learned and grown from his experiences.