Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[JKM]

I wish JJ would have left this scene in the movie and maybe more people would understand where this Kirk is coming from. It's basically showing why he went from Goody-two-shoes to Rebel. His upbringing was worlds apart from TOS Kirk and it shows. Considering where he's coming from, the Kirk in Nutrek makes perfect sense to me. The scene where he first meets Pike makes mores sense also if you've watched that cut scene, as well as Kirk's attitude in his first discussion with Pike where Pike says, "What? You like being the only genius level repeat offender in the midwest?"

And Kirk's reply "Maybe I do, Maybe I love it." Is classic rebellious hurt and hiding individual. This Kirk has no one who believes in him and undoubtedly Pike was the first to see beneath his mask and care to pull him out. Which makes Pike's death in STID that much more painful.

 

[BillJ]

NuKirk is a conventional, young action hero. Similar to TOS-Kirk by an outward reading but not the same if you make an exacting appraisal. I don't know if you can actually do TOS-Kirk today and make it work. It'd probably seem corny. NuKirk is depicted at a more rebel stage of his life and there's a coming-of-age theme, that isn't there with TOS-Kirk.

I know some like to think of this version of Kirk as a conventional, young action hero. But the Abrams folks aren't the only ones to see the younger version of the character as rebellious. Both Best Destiny and Collision Course (by Shatner and the Reeves-Stevens') portray young Kirk as being rebellious.

 

[fireproof78]

I wish JJ would have left this scene in the movie and maybe more people would understand where this Kirk is coming from. It's basically showing why he went from Goody-two-shoes to Rebel. His upbringing was worlds apart from TOS Kirk and it shows. Considering where he's coming from, the Kirk in Nutrek makes perfect sense to me. The scene where he first meets Pike makes mores sense also if you've watched that cut scene, as well as Kirk's attitude in his first discussion with Pike where Pike says, "What? You like being the only genius level repeat offender in the midwest?"

And Kirk's reply "Maybe I do, Maybe I love it." Is classic rebellious hurt and hiding individual. This Kirk has no one who believes in him and undoubtedly Pike was the first to see beneath his mask and care to pull him out. Which makes Pike's death in STID that much more painful.

This is a great point. The films focus on his upbringing and the broader implications which is something often overlooked in a character's development.

 

[Yanks]

Missed this companion video to the "Did JJ's writers understand Trek video:

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My only real complaint about Kirk's development is they did this all in just two movies (which is expected I guess as we won't get these folks in a TV series). It was so fast I didn't absorb some of this until I saw this video. I just wish they hadn't butchered Spock to accomplish this.

 

[JKM]

Missed this companion video to the "Did JJ's writers understand Trek video:

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Finally had time to watch this and I agree with the video 100% also. I wish more people could see it from that POV. The growth in the characters and their story is still one of the things I enjoy most about NuTrek.

 

[WebLurker]

Finally had time to watch this and I agree with the video 100% also. I wish more people could see it from that POV. The growth in the characters and their story is still one of the things I enjoy most about NuTrek.

I think the reboot Kirk's story suffered from the fact that he repeats the exact same story arc in both movies (arrogant hotshot gets taken down a peg, and then rises to the occasion). I will concede that Into Darkness was the better version (the moment where he apologizes to the crew when he can't talk Marcus into not killing them was well done).

On a subjective level, the fact that the felt more like the pop culture cliche of Kirk rather than the character from the TV show didn't help. Given the way we see Kirk's life changed in this series literally from day one, I think we're supposed to instinctively assume that that this guy lead a different life than the original one, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't really like him at all.

 

[Pauln6]

On a subjective level, the fact that the felt more like the pop culture cliche of Kirk rather than the character from the TV show didn't help. Given the way we see Kirk's life changed in this series literally from day one, I think we're supposed to instinctively assume that that this guy lead a different life than the original one, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't really like him at all.

Yeah the issue is that we should accept that Kirk the jerk is different because his life is different but then accept that his leadership qualities are as worthwhile (or at least as appreciated by his peers) as older Kirk prime. Young Kirk prime made mistakes too but nobody promoted him to captain until he was ready. It's like giving a loaded gun to a five year old.

 

[fireproof78]

See, my feeling was never that I should blindly accept Kirk as captain. The films actually demonstrate that making him captain was a mistake, and one that Pike works to rectify, and probably would have had he not died.

 

[JKM]

See, my feeling was never that I should blindly accept Kirk as captain. The films actually demonstrate that making him captain was a mistake, and one that Pike works to rectify, and probably would have had he not died.

Yes this was exactly my point as well. I think Kirk was also given his captaincy because of politics and making good publicity for Star Fleet. The whole point of STID was showing Kirk wasn't ready and his growth as a character onward from there.

 

[Saul]

STID showing Kirk as not ready to be Captain was a response to the criticism that he became Captain too early in the first film. I wouldn't call that something that was planned out from the first film but that's how it worked out.

 

[WebLurker]

STID showing Kirk as not ready to be Captain was a response to the criticism that he became Captain too early in the first film. I wouldn't call that something that was planned out from the first film but that's how it worked out.

But it's only given lip service. After Pike dies, Kirk is back in command and everything proceeds as if it never happened.

 

[jamestyler]

But it's only given lip service. After Pike dies, Kirk is back in command and everything proceeds as if it never happened.

Yes. By the Admiral taking advantage of the reckless one so he'll go do reckless things and help the evil plan....

 

[Vandervecken]

Kirk's pretty poorly realised. He's not written well and I don't get / like Pine in the part. Yes, ruined.

Of the rest of the cast, Saldana's O.K., Quinto is good and Urban is outstanding. Everyone else is bloody awful. And/or horribly miscast. Pegg's appalling. And I generally like him !

Peter Weller was very good--he's a great heavy. He is pretty much the only thing I like about nuTrek. Well, and Urban.

When Spock sacrificed himself in TWOK, Khan had already been neutralized. The greater danger to the Federation was over and only the Enterprise and its crew needed saving.

My point is really that in ST:ID when Kirk sacrificed himself, the Enterprise, San Francisco/Starfleet Academy and the Federation was still in danger from the Vengence and Khan. As captain of the only starship who knew what was happening, it was a foolish decision to sacrifice himself at that point. Taking the Captain out of the picture at that point may have saved the Enterprise, bravo. However, he also completely ignored the Khan's continuing threat to the Federation and left Spock to handle it all alone. To me, that's very irresponsible.

There was a highly competent and resourceful first officer to take charge, and maybe Kirk calculated that, given Spock to take over, a chief engineer was actually more important than he was in a situation where the engines were just coming back online from near disaster.

 

[Pauln6]

There was a highly competent and resourceful first officer to take charge, and maybe Kirk calculated that, given Spock to take over, a chief engineer was actually more important than he was in a situation where the engines were just coming back online from near disaster.

Then order your engineer to do what needs to be done. Don't punch him out so he can't do anything to help anyone.

 

[Amaris]

Then order your engineer to do what needs to be done. Don't punch him out so he can't do anything to help anyone.

Spock has a history of disabling Chief Engineers as well, if TWOK is any indication.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yeah, I covered this about twice, or three times, in this thread and others. It just gets thrown to the side by the detractors so they can repeat the vacuous verbal nonsense about the films being low brow compared to 'real' trek like they didn't notice.

 

[Amaris]

Yeah, I covered this about twice, or three times, in this thread and others. It just gets thrown to the side by the detractors so they can repeat the vacuous verbal nonsense about the films being low brow compared to 'real' trek like they didn't notice.

Sorry, I've been drifting in and out today.

 

[Kemaiku]

Sorry, I've been drifting in and out today.

It's not you, it's getting to be annoying coming up here and pointing out facts and simple little things to be ignored time and time again by ranters.

Just makes me give more money to JJ, but there you go.

 

[BillJ]

Yes. By the Admiral taking advantage of the reckless one so he'll go do reckless things and help the evil plan....

Yep. Marcus was hoping Kirk was gung-ho enough to instigate a war with the Klingons while killing Khan. Taking out two birds with one stone.

 

[Amaris]

It's not you, it's getting to be annoying coming up here and pointing out facts and simple little things to be ignored time and time again by ranters.

Just makes me give more money to JJ, but there you go.

Yeah. For me, if anything, JJ has improved on Kirk. I love Shatner's Kirk, but this isn't Shatner's Kirk nor should it be. We have the chance to see TOS brought to life for millions of potential new fans, and they're loving it, if the critical and box office reviews are any indication. The only way Kirk could be "ruined" is if the new Kirk also destroys all vestiges of the original Kirk, and last I checked my DVDs are still intact.