Detmer & Ariam

[gblews]

This thread is also causing me to reflect on how much I enjoy that Disco has running bridge characters, with maybe little glimpses of personality here and there, but they don't force it. How much better Voyager or Enterprise might have been if they realized Kim and Mayweather should never have been used beyond minimal bridge exposition!

Mayweather had a couple episodes that focused on his character.

As did Kim. I think Kim had more.

Regardless of how much a part of the stories they were (or were not), involved in, you really can't compare Mayweather and Kim to the DSC bridge characters.

The Travis and Harry characters were a part of the regular Ent and Voy cast, The DSC bridge officers are not a part of the DSC regular cast. They're probably listed as "recurring" characters. They do get occasional lines but so far, have not been major parts of any of the stories and may not ever be. That is to be expected given their status' in the cast

If Kim and Mayweather had been treated the same way as the DSC bridge officer characters, that would have been grounds for complaint, because the two characters (and actors), were part of the regular cast. But just because Wayweather and Kim had major roles in certain stories is no justification for treating the DSC bridge characters the same way.

 

[Lord Garth]

If they wanted to shave the side of Detmer's hair they proably should have just went with both sides and go all in on a Vanillia Ice look. The show does have some non-traditional haircuts for Starfleet people yet no Rat Tail's or Mullets for the guys? What about a Dorthy Hammil or Jenifer Anniston for the ladies!

This isn't the '80s (despite my current avatar). One of the guys should have a man-bun and another one should have a fade-up to a side-part to go with their beard.

... and both of those are still better than a rat-tail. I hated those.

 

[Refuge]

I always felt the hairstyles for women in Voyager were old fashioned. Like back combed or something. I much preferred Janeway and Seven when they had their hair loose. Got to say the shaved hair look in Discovery is not great but I just assumed Detmer was messed up after the Battle of the Binary Stars.

 

[Sakonna]

Regardless of how much a part of the stories they were (or were not), involved in, you really can't compare Mayweather and Kim to the DSC bridge characters.

The Travis and Harry characters were a part of the regular Ent and Voy cast, The DSC bridge officers are not a part of the DSC regular cast. They're probably listed as "recurring" characters. They do get occasional lines but so far, have not been major parts of any of the stories and may not ever be. That is to be expected given their status' in the cast

If Kim and Mayweather had been treated the same way as the DSC bridge officer characters, that would have been grounds for complaint, because the two characters (and actors), were part of the regular cast. But just because Wayweather and Kim had major roles in certain stories is no justification for treating the DSC bridge characters the same way.

I would say that contract status is not a reason to write material for characters that are dull and uninteresting, played by terrible actors with no emotional range.

I think you missed my point, which is that Kim and Mayweather never should have been regulars in the first place, because neither character/actor offered anything* of worth to the series, and it was a mistake for VOY and ENT to get in the mindset of "our regular cast must be all our bridge characters, no matter how flat and lifeless they are", a mindset which Disco has been wise to avoid.

*On the page, Mayweather's boomer backstory really could have contributed something cool to the series, but he couldn't act it, so it doesn't. And obviously the diversity they represented was important, and it has always particularly bothered me that it's almost all the non-white males from this era of Trek -- these two plus Beltran -- that were the franchises worst casting failures. As a now-former casting director myself, who started in the field while ENT was still running, I can say with confidence that there is no way in hell they didn't have better auditions from other black & Asian actors. I suspect someone's conscious/unconscious racism is responsible for rejecting those, because it seems like too much of a threat -- they respond to the clearly weaker non-white actor because he reads as bland and neutered, and is thus never going to out-macho the white guys.

 

[BillJ]

I'm not really a big fan of that half-shaved hairstyle in general, but I will admit Detmer pulls it off rather nicely.

It isn't my thing. But how deluded is someone that they see an agenda in a fucking haircut? I shave my head, oh no!!! Must mean I'm a skin head!!!

 

[cultcross]

I think you missed my point, which is that Kim and Mayweather never should have been regulars in the first place, because neither character/actor offered anything* of worth to the series, and it was a mistake for VOY and ENT to get in the mindset of "our regular cast must be all our bridge characters, no matter how flat and lifeless they are", a mindset which Disco has been wise to avoid.

Couldn't agree more - VOY and ENT were terrible slaves to the mistake of forgetting they were creating characters in a story, rather than actually crewing a starship. You don't have to fill every bridge job with a regular castmember, unless the story you want to tell needs then to be regulars. Even TNG didn't do that, the helm and science roles were filled by extras for large parts of its run, and they wanted Worf for decent narrative reasons but didn't have a real spot for him so they invented one (something they would do again for him in DS9).

I suspect someone's conscious/unconscious racism is responsible for rejecting those, because it seems like too much of a threat -- they respond to the clearly weaker non-white actor because he reads as bland and neutered, and is thus never going to out-macho the white

Interesting thought - I've always been interested in the tendency to cast black people to play the 'gruff warrior race' in sci-fi, with Worf and Teal'c as exhibits A and B, and wondered how much that had to do with stereotypes.

? I shave my head, oh no!!! Must mean I'm a skin head!!!

*narrows eyes and starts a file.

 

[jaime]

It isn't my thing. But how deluded is someone that they see an agenda in a fucking haircut? I shave my head, oh no!!! Must mean I'm a skin head!!!

This is something I talk to my dad about...usually when he’s accusing people of looking like a Tory, or looking like they would call someone a pleb. (Whatever your political stance, that was one heck of a dodgy incident.) Or sometimes when he says someone looks poufy. But since I grew out of being a goth, I do t get that as much. I always find it all mildly hilarious...the haircut we are discussing here has probably more fame as a bit of a right wing punk look shall we say.
But then, I always find it’s the people accidentally wearing the uniform of their chosen target for grumpiness that are the first to start throwing appearance about. Dudes in vests with moustaches saying someone looks gay is always amusing, more so if they then put their bovver boots and leather jacket on. Someone saying someone looks like a nazi before popping some kind of armband on and nipping off to a rally for some speaker also makes me giggle.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Interesting thought - I've always been interested in the tendency to cast black people to play the 'gruff warrior race' in sci-fi, with Worf and Teal'c as exhibits A and B, and wondered how much that had to do with stereotypes.

Not sure I've thought about it enough yet to have a firm opinion, but, maybe it's okay for Worf and Teal'c to be strong because they're *aliens* and not *human black males*?

I feel like maybe Avery Brooks is putting the kibosh on this line of reasoning, though?

 

[jaime]

Couldn't agree more - VOY and ENT were terrible slaves to the mistake of forgetting they were creating characters in a story, rather than actually crewing a starship. You don't have to fill every bridge job with a regular castmember, unless the story you want to tell needs then to be regulars. Even TNG didn't do that, the helm and science roles were filled by extras for large parts of its run, and they wanted Worf for decent narrative reasons but didn't have a real spot for him so they invented one (something they would do again for him in DS9).



Interesting thought - I've always been interested in the tendency to cast black people to play the 'gruff warrior race' in sci-fi, with Worf and Teal'c as exhibits A and B, and wondered how much that had to do with stereotypes.



*narrows eyes and starts a file.

In voyagers case, that makes a kind of sense though. Far from home etc. If anything, more characters should have been developed.

I think in ye olden days, the gruff warrior race character was just a way of getting some extra representation casting in for some shows...the American tv landscape was very small c conservative.

 

[Sakonna]

Interesting thought - I've always been interested in the tendency to cast black people to play the 'gruff warrior race' in sci-fi, with Worf and Teal'c as exhibits A and B, and wondered how much that had to do with stereotypes.

It is definitely racially influenced. I've been thinking lately about how the most interesting aspect of my casting career was that, just in the natural course of doing the job, I was also running sociological experiments on huge numbers of people, which was forever yielding fascinating insights into things like this, how racial stereotypes influence people's thinking in ways they're completely unaware of.

Not to say this always leads to a bad outcome, Worf being a prime example. Someone somewhere started with "hmm, violent, animalistic warrior race... lets look at black guys!" But then they found an incredible actor and (eventually) developed a complex & multi-dimensional character for him, and now there's no one else you would ever want to see in the role.

I feel like maybe Avery Brooks is putting the kibosh on this line of reasoning, though?

How so? DS9 has what I consider to be the most incredible female characters in all of science fiction, and was also a show that used attempted rape as comedy. Feminism & misogyny, racism & tolerance, they can and often do exist side-by-side in the same place.

 

[The Wormhole]

and both of those are still better than a rat-tail. I hated those.

*shudders* The rat-tail was stupid, no argument there.

Even TNG didn't do that, the helm and science roles were filled by extras for large parts of its run, and they wanted Worf for decent narrative reasons but didn't have a real spot for him so they invented one (something they would do again for him in DS9).

Data was actually intended to be the science officer during the development stage, the only reason he wasn't was because Spiner didn't look good in a blue uniform. In the case of Worf, they didn't really "invent a spot" for him, in season 1 he was the bridge's deck officer, a very real and legitimate job in the navy. It's just the rest of Star Trek has for some reason chosen not to follow up on this. Although, yeah, DS9 did create the position of "strategic operations officer" when he arrived there.

In voyagers case, that makes a kind of sense though. Far from home etc. If anything, more characters should have been developed.

The TV series The Last Ship is one of the best attempts at depicting ship-board life, IMO. In addition to the main and supporting cast, nearly all the extras have names that are worked into dialogue. Basically, it is possible to watch a scene that only has two regulars, plus maybe three extras in frame, and there's a good chance you'd know the names of the extras and even something about them. And because of this, when someone who would be considered a "redshirt" on any other show gets killed, you actually give a damn about them on this show.

 

[XCV330]

It isn't my thing. But how deluded is someone that they see an agenda in a fucking haircut? I shave my head, oh no!!! Must mean I'm a skin head!!!

Not all skins are racist.

I always felt the hairstyles for women in Voyager were old fashioned. Like back combed or something. I much preferred Janeway and Seven when they had their hair loose. Got to say the shaved hair look in Discovery is not great but I just assumed Detmer was messed up after the Battle of the Binary Stars.

They had one of those 23rd century b-52s beehive maker machines in the back, but could not use it due to power constraints. Voyager had to look shiny at the end of every episode, hair be damned.

 

[eschaton]

I always felt the hairstyles for women in Voyager were old fashioned. Like back combed or something. I much preferred Janeway and Seven when they had their hair loose. Got to say the shaved hair look in Discovery is not great but I just assumed Detmer was messed up after the Battle of the Binary Stars.

I think in general directors hate loose hair, because it can flop around between takes and make it obvious that scenes were not filmed concurrently. Hair pulled tightly back, cropped short, or sprayed until it's immobile is better.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It isn't my thing. But how deluded is someone that they see an agenda in a fucking haircut? I shave my head, oh no!!! Must mean I'm a skin head!!!

I shave my head too...nobody's ever called me a nazi, but somebody here on this board once said I look like the lead singer of Judas Priest

 

[Jayson1]

I shave my head too...nobody's ever called me a nazi, but somebody here on this board once said I look like the lead singer of Judas Priest

Actually being bald is the ultimate SJW haircut. Picard,Sisko,Saru,EMH and Kirk though he is kind of ashamed of it because why else would he go with the toupe.

Jason

 

[CorporalClegg]

Actually being bald is the ultimate SJW haircut. Picard,Sisko,Saru,EMH and Kirk though he is kind of ashamed of it because why else would he go with the toupe.

Jason

 

[Kane_Steel]

I'll say this for him, he's consistent.

Every time the anti-SJW bell rings, a little racist angel gets its wings.

It isn't my thing. But how deluded is someone that they see an agenda in a fucking haircut? I shave my head, oh no!!! Must mean I'm a skin head!!!

Thanks Drax, for once again taking things way too literally.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I shave my head too...nobody's ever called me a nazi, but somebody here on this board once said I look like the lead singer of Judas Priest

You"re welcome.

 

[Vger23]

What the hell is going on here and what exactly is a SJW haircut?

 

[Jinn]

What the hell is going on here and what exactly is a SJW haircut?

Maybe it's not appropriated from another culture? *checks on hair to be sure that nothing got appropriated*