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Deep Space 9 Defenses

...do you mean ablative armor?
Yes. Ablative armor. LOL!!! Ooops. Thank you. It's possible this new armor was incorporated after the findings in the episode "Visionary" but ramming the station would be the way to go of crippling it. Strange the Jem Hedar all of a sudden changed their fighting tactics after their first appearance. It's not as if the Shape Shifters can't pull a Star Wars and clone more Jem Hedar?
 
Strange the Jem Hedar all of a sudden changed their fighting tactics after their first appearance.
The suicide run at the Odyssey worked because the Jem'Hadar had neutralized the shields via technological advantages, and the captain ordered energy utilization away from shields to weapons. Those did not hold in subsequent episodes.
 
Not really true. In the S6 finale the Jem'hadar are all for kamikaze attaching.
...do you mean kamikaze attacking?

But not at the Reactor which would've given a crippling blow. The Jem Hedar rammed at a starship at it's vulnerable spot; they seem not to go there for DS9 in Season 6.
 
Why would the station's state of equip as of the second half of "Emissary" reflect anything much about Starfleet thinking or Cardassian thinking or whatnot? This was only days after Cardassia had thrashed and abandoned the station, and basically hours after Starfleet was allowed in; even with Starfleet's finest toiling with the place in the certain knowledge that a thousand warships would be arriving tomorrow, it doesn't sound likely that much in the way of results could be achieved. There just wouldn't be time.

What we know of the station's state of equip before the thrashing is, well, very little. Half the things that are seen firing Starfleet weapons at various points of the show could originally have been Cardassian anchoring bollards or fueling sockets or something equally unrelated to defense, and the original station might have been virtually unarmed. Or then the original already had all the guns in place, and Starfleet just swapped UFP models for Cardassian ones. And the pseudo-truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Amusingly, the station's six "weapon sails" each feature a Starfleet-style phaser strip at mid-span from the get-go (that is, the model has those in "Emissary" and never changes), instead of a Cardassian phaser pyramid. And so do the Mirror Terok Nor and the regular Empok Nor! But we can ignore that and assume that there were pyramids there "originally". There's a tractor beam at the flat tip, and that may have been there "originally", too. There's a torpedo hole at the very top of the tip, and we may speculate on whether the Cardassians had anything there at all because none of their other combat assets feature torpedo technology of any sort. And then there are all the extra doodads from "Way of the Warrior" on, and it's anybody's guess whether any of that was in place "originally" before the Cardassians left.

As for ramming, it has generally been a tactic dismissed by our heroes and not practiced the villains, for whatever reason. Riker only considers it as a last-ditch maneuver against the Borg in "BoBW", even though there should have been a need for a suicide attack at several earlier timepoints already - it sounds as if he wants to go out with a bang, without much hope of achieving anything. And it actually fails in "The Hunted" (intentionally). So, what changes in "Tears of the Prophets", the first-ever instance of ramming working against shields? Are all shields modified to withstand phased polaron beams automatically incapable of stopping ramming? If so, then DS9 should have been suspect in "Call to Arms" already, as its new shields did repel PPBs. But of course the Dominion had little intention of destroying the station at that point yet, and little idea that it really should be considering that exact move!

Timo Saloniemi
 
So, what changes in "Tears of the Prophets", the first-ever instance of ramming working against shields? Are all shields modified to withstand phased polaron beams automatically incapable of stopping ramming? If so, then DS9 should have been suspect in "Call to Arms" already, as its new shields did repel PPBs. But of course the Dominion had little intention of destroying the station at that point yet, and little idea that it really should be considering that exact move!
Good question, although there are things that make the various instances difficult to compare. Most notably, suicide runs are only against the Klingon ships, and Martok divulges no details as to why his ships were vulnerable. If the original instances of ramming (although the ships were probably more like torpedoes than rams) relied on technological advantages, those advantages may have been restored.
 
Good question, although there are things that make the various instances difficult to compare. Most notably, suicide runs are only against the Klingon ships, and Martok divulges no details as to why his ships were vulnerable. If the original instances of ramming (although the ships were probably more like torpedoes than rams) relied on technological advantages, those advantages may have been restored.
Don't they specifically target the Klingons because they think they could be angered and relied upon to break formation, giving time for the weapon platforms to come online? I didn't think it was anything specific that made Klingon ships more vulnerable. They only had a few ships that wouldn't have made any difference to the battle, so the kamikaze attacks are as good as anything. Likewise the Odyssey probably could have fought off the couple of ships attacking given time, the Jem'Hadar took their opportunity to obliterate the escaping vessel to make a point.

The Jem'Hadar don't seem keen on ramming in general - it wouldn't be a wise tactic to use constantly, as you'd quickly deplete your ships, even with the Dominion's prodigious rate of building. It's more of a tactic of desperation, or to send a message.
 
It's odd that only the Jem'Hadar would use the tactic, when Klingons are famed for their suicidal bravery in other, far less dire contexts.

We can argue that our heroes don't ram because they don't want to die. Even when Picard does ram a ship that seriously threatens the survival of Earth, it is to no loss of Starfleet life, and he subsequently refuses to conclude the attack with a decisive explosion when his life-preserving, countdown-providing self-destruct system fails and leaves no option but for him to perish with his ship. But that argument shouldn't carry for Klingons or certain other species/cultures.

An argument based on technological pseudo-facts might be more convenient, then.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...do you mean kamikaze attacking?

But not at the Reactor which would've given a crippling blow. The Jem Hedar rammed at a starship at it's vulnerable spot; they seem not to go there for DS9 in Season 6.

Yes, yes I did mean that. :p
And I wasn't referring to the attack on the station. As I said, the S6 finale; i.e. the battle at Chin'toka (or however it's spelled) where the Jem'hadar fighters plunge right into the allied fleet.
 
Yes, yes I did mean that. :p
And I wasn't referring to the attack on the station.
The station is what I'm talking about, I'm surprised the Jem Hedar, with what we know of them, didn't make attempts to ram the station's reactor.
 
Don't they specifically target the Klingons because they think they could be angered and relied upon to break formation, giving time for the weapon platforms to come online? I didn't think it was anything specific that made Klingon ships more vulnerable. They only had a few ships that wouldn't have made any difference to the battle, so the kamikaze attacks are as good as anything. Likewise the Odyssey probably could have fought off the couple of ships attacking given time, the Jem'Hadar took their opportunity to obliterate the escaping vessel to make a point..
I believe you are confusing Sisko's tactics in Sacrifice of Angels, where he targeted the Cardassians ships so they would break formation. TOTP doesn't give the Dominion perspective on the attack, saying that the Dominion ships were closest to the Klingon ships than the other ships in the fleet. Was that intentional? I don't think it can be said either way.
 
I believe you are confusing Sisko's tactics in Sacrifice of Angels, where he targeted the Cardassians ships so they would break formation. TOTP doesn't give the Dominion perspective on the attack, saying that the Dominion ships were closest to the Klingon ships than the other ships in the fleet. Was that intentional? I don't think it can be said either way.
You're right, I am confusing them. It's been a while since I saw those episodes.
 
We might argue there's tactical consistency to the Alpha Axis deployment of forces: in the final battle plan above Cardassia in "What You Leave Behind", the Klingons again get to tackle the small Breen vessels, providing cover so that the Feds can take on the static defenses.

Might be that's how Klingons like it - being the first into the battle, even if that means their job is one of skirmishing, rather than delivering the decisive blow.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We might argue there's tactical consistency to the Alpha Axis deployment of forces: in the final battle plan above Cardassia in "What You Leave Behind", the Klingons again get to tackle the small Breen vessels, providing cover so that the Feds can take on the static defenses.

Might be that's how Klingons like it - being the first into the battle, even if that means their job is one of skirmishing, rather than delivering the decisive blow.

Timo Saloniemi
I assumed it was because the Klingons had been holding the line against the Breen and their energy dampening weapons for a few weeks/months, and were therefore best trained to fight them.
 
We'll they already knew how ships would hold up against orbital defences based on the Battle of .Chin'toka perhaps Federation ships fared the best
 
The food replicators weren't even working yet. People were looting shops and killing people over supplies. Pretty sure Starfleet didn't get around to loading the torpedo bays yet.

When the Romulans were preparing to destroy the worhhole, DS9 had at least 50 photon torpedoes, instead of 6. That's enough to outgun an Intrepid class starship (armed with 32 photons). Once the weapons upgrade was complete DS9's arsenal went up to 5000 torpedoes
 
The food replicators weren't even working yet. People were looting shops and killing people over supplies. Pretty sure Starfleet didn't get around to loading the torpedo bays yet.
The food replicators aren't as important as the defense systems.
The defense systems protect you from threat forces (they are needed). The replicators aren't needed (not necessary). Food is, but you can just use emergency rations (as O'Brien suggested to Jake Sisko in "Emissary").
 
The food replicators aren't as important as the defense systems.
The defense systems protect you from threat forces (they are needed). The replicators aren't needed (not necessary). Food is, but you can just use emergency rations (as O'Brien suggested to Jake Sisko in "Emissary").
But once again, there wasn't a perceived threat. The station was in orbit of Bajor, protected by the Bajoran militia which had just driven the Cardassians from their planet.

It was only the wholly unforseen circumstances of Emissary that put the station in harms way, with Kira forced to move them to the wormhole, hours away from Bajor at usual sublight speeds. Faced with a missing warship, and a ludicrous story about a "wormhole", Jassad not unreasonably concluded Kira had destroyed it.

Remember Dukat only came to give Sisko a tap on the shoulder - he never had any intention of attacking the station or reconquering the planet. He was much smarter than that.

The purpose of the station was to coordinate relief efforts around Bajor and prepare them for Federation membership. It wasn't intended to provide any measure of defence that we know. Sisko's presence was never supposed to guarantee security, other than to show the flag, and remind the Cardassians that the Federation would protect Bajor if it came to that.
 
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We have to consider how repairs could be effected on the sabotaged hardware, too. Installing new phasers or torpedo launchers would probably call for the shipping in of said hardware, discarding of the Cardassian wreckage, gutting of the spaces needed for installation, and then doing the installing, partially from the outside of the station.

That Sisko had a tactically useless load-up of six torpedoes was probably because Starfleet had brought along a single launcher, and six rounds for Sisko to test it with, and said "We'll come back in two months and arm your station properly - that is, if you haven't been kicked out of Bajor by then". Half of Starfleet probably hoped that Bajor would fall back in Cardassian hands, so that this useless backwater surrounded by hostiles would not cause further problems for the UFP.

Did the station have any other weapons in "Emissary" besides the single (Starfleet?) launcher and a single phaser emitter (with the very Cardassian-looking swirly effect)? I rather doubt it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Did the station have any other weapons in "Emissary" besides the single (Starfleet?) launcher and a single phaser emitter (with the very Cardassian-looking swirly effect)? I rather doubt it.

Timo Saloniemi
The Phaser bank shouldn't have had the swirly effect. It didn't fire a Phaser beam. It fired something else (some sort of pulse).
 
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