Deep Space 9 Defenses

[JirinPanthosa]

The resistance didn't win by achieving any kind of military victory over Cardassia. It won by raising the cost of holding Bajor to a point where it was no longer worth the investment.

It was pretty clear at least from Admiral Ross that the goal of the Federation presence in Bajor was to bring them into the Federation, and as Eddington observed, the Federation saw all non-Federation worlds as future Federation worlds.

 

[MacLeod]

The resistance didn't win by achieving any kind of military victory over Cardassia. It won by raising the cost of holding Bajor to a point where it was no longer worth the investment.

It was pretty clear at least from Admiral Ross that the goal of the Federation presence in Bajor was to bring them into the Federation, and as Eddington observed, the Federation saw all non-Federation worlds as future Federation worlds.

So what if it did? Those planets had the choice whther or not to join the UFP. After all Bajor did apply for Federation membership and it was granted membership, though we never say it's admission due to the Dominion war.

 

[Timo]

The resistance didn't win by achieving any kind of military victory over Cardassia. It won by raising the cost of holding Bajor to a point where it was no longer worth the investment.

If so, why didn't Cardassia leave?

That is, why didn't it leave when the local minerals supposedly ran out already, but waited until some unknown cue that Dukat said was a dictate on the military by the civilian government which traditionally had no say on such matters? We might believe Dukat on this just as well as we might believe Kira or Shakaar.

I seriously doubt Cardassia would have been thinking in terms of cost or worth when Bajor was their Okinawa, an inner defense asset past which any invader would be walking on Cardassian home soil. So what if keeping Bajor cost X number of Cardassian lives per month? Those lives would be the justification for keeping Bajor, rather than a counterargument.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If so, why didn't Cardassia leave?

That is, why didn't it leave when the local minerals supposedly ran out already, but waited until some unknown cue that Dukat said was a dictate on the military by the civilian government which traditionally had no say on such matters? We might believe Dukat on this just as well as we might believe Kira or Shakaar.

I seriously doubt Cardassia would have been thinking in terms of cost or worth when Bajor was their Okinawa, an inner defense asset past which any invader would be walking on Cardassian home soil. So what if keeping Bajor cost X number of Cardassian lives per month? Those lives would be the justification for keeping Bajor, rather than a counterargument.

Timo Saloniemi

JirinPanthosa may or may not have been arguing that Cardassian decisions were exclusively economic. Nevertheless, the fact that the Bajorans may have created (and succeeded at creating) an economic incentive for a pullout does not negate the fact that there were probably numerous reasons why Cardassians wished to keep Bajor, pride among them.

 

[Timo]

There is no denying that the resistance movement scored a victory: even if their efforts had no real effect on the ultimate Cardassian decision to leave, the freedom fighters were perfectly able to claim they did it all, and to become influential in the postwar, post-caste society.

Had their fighting actually made a difference, though, this would affect our discussion on what defenses Terok Nor should originally have had. What did those sub-impulse fighters fight? Planetary targets only? Bajorans (and the "Bajora", possibly a terrorist/guerilla organization) traveled extensively in interstellar space during the occupation; they may well have been a space threat, possibly occasionally putting a bomb on a transport or steering one to a collision course, possibly employing their little combat craft as well. Or the big ones - did those "impulse interceptors" see Bajoran/Bajora use originally, or were all in the hands of the Cardassians and forces loyal to them? I doubt those ships sprang into existence overnight, for use in "Preemptive Strike" and the like!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

There is no denying that the resistance movement scored a victory: even if their efforts had no real effect on the ultimate Cardassian decision to leave, the freedom fighters were perfectly able to claim they did it all, and to become influential in the postwar, post-caste society.

Had their fighting actually made a difference, though, this would affect our discussion on what defenses Terok Nor should originally have had. What did those sub-impulse fighters fight? Planetary targets only? Bajorans (and the "Bajora", possibly a terrorist/guerilla organization) traveled extensively in interstellar space during the occupation; they may well have been a space threat, possibly occasionally putting a bomb on a transport or steering one to a collision course, possibly employing their little combat craft as well. Or the big ones - did those "impulse interceptors" see Bajoran/Bajora use originally, or were all in the hands of the Cardassians and forces loyal to them? I doubt those ships sprang into existence overnight, for use in "Preemptive Strike" and the like!

Timo Saloniemi

We know Bajorans had colonies/refugee camps, presumably with at least some means of travel. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a Bajoran government in exile, with the remnants of Bajor's pre-occupation Militia. I doubt all the uniforms and infrastructure came from nowhere - we could be looking at a Free French army equivalent. They were unable to score much in the way of military success, but did help bring Federation soft power to bear on their side. After the Cardassians left, the resistance fighters were absorbed into the Militia, perhaps much to the chagrin of those fighters who spent years in the foothills of Dakur Province with limited support or supplies, now asked to report to Generals who spent all their lives off world.

 

[Timo]

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a Bajoran government in exile, with the remnants of Bajor's pre-occupation Militia.

Or several, for that matter...

Did Bajor have a military before the occupation, though? Or even a government? The place smacks of a theocracy - even the Council of Ministers might be a purely clerical organization, and we don't know if that organization existed before the occupation. If clerics held political power in old Bajor, perhaps the religious figures who hunkered in their monasteries were the legitimate government, (self-)exiled not offworld but indoors, and no diaspora organization could ever compete with them upon the Cardassian withdrawal.

And we never heard of a warrior caste, say, in "Accession" where somebody from such a caste probably should have taken Kira's place. It is possible that the likes of General Krim were "born to the grey"; it's also possible they stepped into former military slots directly out of the hills at which they fought, those slots having been cleared by Cardassian execution squads a generation or two earlier.

I doubt all the uniforms and infrastructure came from nowhere

Revolutionaries or rebels of Earth have kicked up uniforms and infrastructure out of nothing flat with fewer resources than the supposedly replicator-equipped immediate-post-occupation Bajor...

Then again, there's a native, exclusively Bajoran design for hand phasers. Where did those come from? The resistance had a hodgepodge of foreign weapons, and interestingly none of these post-occupation guns in the flashbacks or nostalgia eps like "Shakaar". did Cardassia replicate standardized guns for the collaborating Bajoran police force, or take possession of Bajor's entire arsenal of infantry weapons early on?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Good point, we don't really know how Bajor was actually run. If it was more of a Vichy government, with the Cardassian influence limited to the ore processing station and the odd massacre, the weapons and larger ships could well have been operated by the proxy police force.

Being a theocracy doesn't preclude having a military though. We've seen plenty of religiously-motivated armies throughout our own history.

 

[Timo]

Quite so. But the fun thing about Bajor is its extreme age. If a society manages to stay stable for, say, two thousand years, it may well then remain stable for five hundred thousand, a lower-end estimate for Picard's phrasing in "Ensign Ro" (cities when humans weren't standing erect yet). Things like legislation might become utterly irrelevant: every law would have been written already, every annual budget for every possible type of year done many times over, the process of choosing the right one from the archives for the year at hand also done so many times over that there would be books about the books about the books on that.

Would such a society need policing, or combat forces? The need to enforce anything might be contrary to the stability we supposedly witness. Possibly Bajorans just obey? They aren't humans - after those hundreds of millennia, there are still mountain ranges on their world that haven't been surveyed, a paradise moon nobody bothered to inhabit, and the technology to build cities hasn't evolved in the time allotted to surpass the technologies of the UFP.

The other two obvious interpretations here are that Bajor is dynamic but cyclic, and has frequently backslided during its extremely long civilization - or that Picard was grossly exaggerating the age in "Ensign Ro".

If Cardassia fell upon a civilization that used to be mighty previously (many times previously), would the days of the occupation be numbered from the very start? Would the monasteries just gradually dig up the books that would teach them the ultimate arts of war, and the ancient machines that would turn them into gods? Apparently it wasn't as simple as that, as many generations did pass under Cardassian rule. And the only "ancient supertech" apart form what the Prophets provided was that holo-camouflaged staircase in "Emissary"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Unless their culture is a warning about the progress-stunting power of theocracy? They had interstellar ships when Cardassians were in their infancy. Perhaps the last couple of millennia they were having their religious phase?

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Unless their culture is a warning about the progress-stunting power of theocracy? They had interstellar ships when Cardassians were in their infancy. Perhaps the last couple of millennia they were having their religious phase?

Unfortunately. I would like them more with starships than religion (I hate and am not part of any religion).

@PhaserLightShow

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If so, why didn't Cardassia leave?

That is, why didn't it leave when the local minerals supposedly ran out already, but waited until some unknown cue that Dukat said was a dictate on the military by the civilian government which traditionally had no say on such matters? We might believe Dukat on this just as well as we might believe Kira or Shakaar.

I seriously doubt Cardassia would have been thinking in terms of cost or worth when Bajor was their Okinawa, an inner defense asset past which any invader would be walking on Cardassian home soil. So what if keeping Bajor cost X number of Cardassian lives per month? Those lives would be the justification for keeping Bajor, rather than a counterargument.

Timo Saloniemi

Of course it's about cost. Only Dukat saw the occupation of Bajor as a symbol of Cardassian superiority. The politicians in charge of the decision to leave were bean counters who only cared they gained more from Bajor than they had to spend to keep it. Bajor was not an important strategic post and if the wormhole were discovered before they withdrew they never would have.

 

[Spot261]

Speculation; had DS9 come a few years later the producers would have been somewhat more wary of the middle east parallels in bajor, particularly with regard to kira and the resistance.

In either case, with regard to the original question it is pretty clear that in it's earliest on screen incarnation DS9 was pretty ramshackle and whatever defences the cardassians had installed were in a deliberately poor state of repair. Whilst the crew managed to technobabble a token showing from the station with the dramatic purpose of illustrating just how defenceless they were, it is pretty clear that when the unexpected importance of the location became clear starfleet began some pretty intensive upgrades, including a complete overhaul of its defences, from the ground up. Arguably by the time of WOTW we it has become the single most powerful SF asset we have seen on screen to date.

A minor bug for me is just how little of the above work appears to affect the running of the station or is shown on screen. Presumably the stations fundamental power systems and infrastructure would require gutting out and replacing with federation level technology to support those much more powerful systems.

 

[Timo]

Bajor was not an important strategic post

...Except a few episodes into the first season, we learn that Bajor in fact is the most important strategic post in the universe short of Cardassia itself. No, not because of the wormhole. Forget the wormhole, destroy the wormhole, Bajor still remains the strategically most important piece of real estate in the universe - because it is the next-door neighbor of the Cardassian home system!

Supposedly, the Cardassian Union features a large number of systems (whether colonies, outposts or conquered worlds with native populations, we never learn), and extends far away from Cardassia Prime in many directions. Not so in the direction of Bajor! The Bajoran system is the only one standing between the capital of the Union and neutral space. Giving it up and allowing it to become part of that neutral space seems like an inconceivable strategic blunder.

Which may be the very reason the civilian government gave it up: it was blackmail with the highest possible stakes. "Heel, Central Command, or we will never let you have Bajor back!"

Of course, at that point, "letting CC have Bajor back" would have been but a minor formality. Nobody could predict the UFP would take an interest, let alone that the UFP would refuse to leave when the Cardassians came back.

A minor bug for me is just how little of the above work appears to affect the running of the station or is shown on screen. Presumably the stations fundamental power systems and infrastructure would require gutting out and replacing with federation level technology to support those much more powerful systems.

Good point - but it could be argued the station's refining processes called for it to have a massive powerplant already, and none of those processes were running any more. Furthermore, a large part of the volume of the station would have been idled as well, now that the ore and the products no longer were flowing; upgunning could proceed behind closed doors, yet right next to preexisting power sockets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

Good point - but it could be argued the station's refining processes called for it to have a massive powerplant already, and none of those processes were running any more. Furthermore, a large part of the volume of the station would have been idled as well, now that the ore and the products no longer were flowing; upgunning could proceed behind closed doors, yet right next to preexisting power sockets.

I hadn't thought of it that way, I'd always just assumed that the "starfleetification" (yup, that's a word, I know because I just made it up) process would require a quantum leap in the stations underlying capabilities, from ramshackle backwater technologically third rate affair to a top of the line military fortress a good century ahead in terms of sophistication.

As we have no definite numbers regarding the energy requirements for either the weapons emplacements or the ore refining facilities then yeah, your fudge probably works there.

 

[Tomalak]

Of course, at that point, "letting CC have Bajor back" would have been but a minor formality. Nobody could predict the UFP would take an interest, let alone that the UFP would refuse to leave when the Cardassians came back.

Empires have lost possessions on their doorstep in our own history: France and Algeria, Britain and Ireland, USA and Cuba. It's not impossible that the continued occupation of Bajor simply became politically untenable.

I would dispute "Nobody could predict the UFP would take an interest". Emissary seems to take place a matter of days after the Cardassians left, yet already a Federation presence has been agreed and assigned to the station. I've always thought it was part of the peace treaty with the Federation which was around at the time. 'Chain of Command', right before 'Emissary', visibly reveals the last gasp plans of the military to forestall this treaty. With their plans in tatters and their leaders discredited, the civilian government could force through the treaty and end the embarrassing occupation of Bajor.

The Enterprise seems to have gone from the McAllister nebula straight to Bajor to establish the Federation presence. I tend to connect those events. Sisko seems to have been given his assignment in a hurry - he didn't even pack anything.

 

[Tomalak]

Just to add to that, I presume the end of the occupation was a process rather than an event. It could well be that Terok Nor was simply the last thing the Cardassian military gave up, like the US embassy in Saigon. With the new Bajoran government having otherthrown the Quisling puppet administration, I'm envisioning something like the fall of Eastern European communist governments around 1989-91, when the Soviets declined to use military means to maintain them. NATO were swiftly invited in to ensure the Russians didn't change their minds...

 

[Timo]

Empires have lost possessions on their doorstep in our own history: France and Algeria, Britain and Ireland, USA and Cuba. It's not impossible that the continued occupation of Bajor simply became politically untenable.

Good point. But why would it become politically untenable? Because somebody from the outside was putting pressure on Cardassia? Our Starfleet heroes seem at loss to explain why the Cardassians left, so probably it wasn't Picard's doing. Because the planet was a drain of resources? But Gul Madred seems to be saying that Cardassia needs to keep conquering just to tread water - so it should be moving onward from Bajor, not inward. Any drain of military resources would be welcomed by the military, justifying their expansion; certainly the more bodies, the merrier, because that would splendidly justify sending in more troops to put an end to the killing! And it's a bit unlikely that internal dissent would force Cardassia to do anything much, given the totalitarian means of control...

Emissary seems to take place a matter of days after the Cardassians left

...Dukat says it has been two weeks since he sat in his chair.

yet already a Federation presence has been agreed and assigned to the station.

It is the very nature of the UFP presence that makes me think the UFP didn't care. They assign a commander/liaison who is likely to resign tomorrow; they leave him with resources insufficient for coping with renewed Cardassian interest; and a pep talk from their fiercest pro-Bajoran activist is needed to convince the commander that he's actually there for a purpose at all. Gul Dukat seems immediately well versed in all these things...

The Enterprise seems to have gone from the McAllister nebula straight to Bajor to establish the Federation presence. I tend to connect those events.

Me too. But being humiliated in one front should probably make Cardassians bolder on another. Bajor is theirs, a defensive undertaking rather than a shady conquest plan.

Sisko seems to have been given his assignment in a hurry - he didn't even pack anything.

He didn't plan on staying, so the hurry need not have been that great. But about a week out of the two allocated might have gone to the UFP and Starfleet staring incredulously at what the Cardassians were doing, before deciding on a reaction...

Just to add to that, I presume the end of the occupation was a process rather than an event.

Yet should it have taken Garak by surprise, then? He didn't want to remain behind; had he had time to prepare, he would have found another means of surviving the transition.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Yeah, that's a good point, I hadn't quite considered it that way. It might have been potentially awkward for the Federation, having agreed a treaty with Cardassia, to find themselves asked to provide a presence on Cardassia's doorstep. That might well explain why they don't establish a strong military force - until the Dominion turn up. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, they seek to downplay their presence by simply sending a commander, a handful of junior officers, and three runabouts. Of course this could also be all the Bajorans are willing to accept as well. The wormhole doesn't seem to significantly change their thinking - again, it's not in Federation space, so they have limited jurisdiction.