Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by M'rk son of Mogh, Dec 4, 2020.
I'd say just the opposite. We're not talking about a real "universe" here, we're talking about a set of interconnected fictional works and what defines them as a distinct entity. So what matters is what's narratively connected and important. A five-second clip from another show that has no interaction with or impact upon the Arrowverse characters cannot meaningfully be considered part of the Arrowverse as a narrative construct. Throwing in everything indiscriminately is as arbitrary as it gets. Drawing a distinction between a one-shot cameo that's never mentioned again and a story element that has a continuing, meaningful connection to the larger franchise over time is functional and grounded in purpose and meaning, the exact opposite of arbitrariness.
So what's the Naomi comic about? I've never read it. (I assume it's about someone named "Naomi" with super powers)
Girl discovers she's has superpowers.
ETA: Okay it's a little more complicated than that. One might even say overly so. She's from an alternate Earth ruled by mad superhumans She's sent to Earth so the ruler of that Earth wont kill her and she's raised by Rannian soldier who lives on Earth. I think there a Thanagarian involved as well.
Like I said, overly complicated.
The less you know the better--the original run is her origin story.
Would you guys include Lucifer in that since we saw Arrowverse characters go to that Earth and interact with Tom Ellis's Lucifer? I'm not trying to be difficult or anything, I'm honestly curious since that one is kind of a borderline case. He didn't have a ton of screen time, or a huge role in the story, but it was more than we got for stuff like Batmans '66 and '89, Birds of Prey, or Titans, Doom Patrol, and Stargirl.
As I said, I think what matters to the "Arrowverse" designation is whether it's part of it on a continuing basis, not just as a single special event. Again, it doesn't matter if they share a multiverse in-story, because the conceit of Crisis is that every DC production (or at least the live-action ones) shares the multiverse, so that's too broad to be meaningful. The label's value exists here in the real world as a way of differentiating that particular CW/Berlanti Productions franchise as a whole from other works that are creatively independent of it. So Flash '90 counts because it's been given a recurring and integral relevance to the Arrowverse continuity -- and because it doesn't still have a separate, independent existence. And I disagree entirely with the Arrowverse Wiki's choice to count Birds of Prey as part of the Arrowverse, because its inclusion was a brief teaser that had no connection to anything else. So I'd also exclude things like Lucifer, Smallville, and the DCEU, because they were one-time crossovers/references. Also because they have long-running or ongoing distinct identities of their own so that it isn't logical to subsume them within the "Arrowverse" label. They don't need to be folded into it the way a "rescued" show like Flash '90 or Constantine did. Those were cases of acknowledging something separate in passing, rather than making it part of the same ongoing whole.
Of course, if they brought back, say, Superman-96 or Lucifer or someone from Smallville a second time, if they made it an ongoing part of the narrative, then it would probably qualify by my definition. I do expect that to happen with Stargirl now that it'll be natively on The CW, as I've said. And who knows? It could potentially happen with Lucifer, as that's a Netflix show now and the Arrowverse shows are popular on Netflix. Although I'm more comfortable using it for an already-ended work that's given new life in the Arrowverse than I would be with a separate ongoing show.
No, although my only reason for not doing so is a lack of familiarity with the series.
However, even if one were to personally choose to include Lucifer, the Donnerverse, and Smallville as part of the Arrowverse, the official Canon of the franchise remains limited to the series I listed earlier, along with the forthcoming Superman and Lois, which I hadn't mentioned.
I must have misunderstood, I didn't realize you were talking about effecting things on a regular basis.
It might not be official, but I'd basically include anything that had it's characters interact with the Arrowverse characters, so I'd include Smallville, Lucifer and the DCEU since it's Barry met and interacted face to face with the Arrowverse Barry.
If you're gonna count those series/franchises part of the Arrowverse for your headcanon, the Reeves/Routh Superman films and Helen Slater's Supergirl film should be counted too.
Reeve. But, yes.
It does make sense to differentiate worlds the core characters actually visited or interacted with from worlds that we just glimpsed in cameos. On my Patreon, I did reviews of Flash '90 and Birds of Prey approaching them as parts of the Crisis multiverse and discussing how they related to the Arrowverse shows. But I didn't draw any such connections in my reviews of the '92 Human Target or my currently ongoing reviews of the '88 Superboy, because neither of those appeared in Crisis, so that doesn't give me a hook to connect them. So I see where you're coming from there.
Still, I think that interaction is not the same as membership. It's like the difference between, say, being a tourist in France and being a resident of France. I was willing to use the Crisis connection as a conceptual hook to try to attract interest to my Birds of Prey reviews, but I still don't a one-time cameo integrates it enough to justify merging it into the Arrowverse Wiki, say. Whereas Smallville, Lucifer, and the DCEU have prominent, distinct enough identities of their own that it seems inappropriate to subsume them.
Although I am tempted to think of Superman Returns/Earth-96 as part of the Arrowverse, because it's like Flash '90 and Constantine in being a continuity that ended prematurely and was "rescued" and given new life by the Arrowverse. I don't know if we're ever likely to see it again, but we could say that it has narrative significance to the Arrowverse because Superman '96 was one of the Paragons and actually joined the team, participating in two episodes (cameoing in a third) and being alluded to once or twice in subsequent episodes of the franchise (according to the wiki). So mayyyyybe that's enough to justify it.
Oh, right I forgot about Routh Superman, so I'd add that one to.
I have no way to confirm the accuracy of it, but this supposed casting description for the title character is floating around on Twitter and YouTube:
If this is the real thing, it would seem they are leaning pretty hard into the Superman connection from the Naomi comic. In fact, I would think a guest appearance by Hoechlin in the Naomi pilot, and/or a crossover with Superman & Lois at some point, would be virtually guaranteed.
Berlanti Productions has nothing to do with this series, so there's no reason to believe that it's going to have any links whatsoever to the Arrowverse.
Why on Earth would CW do a show with a main character who is a superhero who is also specifically a Superman fan, while also having a Superman show on the air, and not cross them over? It is the easiest cross promotion in the world. Then again, some people also claimed Supergirl would never cross over, then they claimed that Black Lightning would never cross over, and look what happened there
Berlanti being involved or not doesn't matter, CW is making both shows, and has literally no reason to not cross over the shows. There is literally nothing to lose and potentially a lot to gain, it would be stupid not to take advantage of a crossover opportunity that is literally baked into one of the characters whole personality.
Supergirl was always an Arrowverse series, and the Akils were given the leeway to determine if or when Black Lightning interacted with the network's other DC properties.
If The CW wanted Naomi to be linked to the Arrowverse, they would have Berlanti Productions involved with its production.
Naomi being a CW series does not automatically necessitate it being linked to the Arrowverse, nor does the character's connection to Superman, since there's absolutely nothing stopping Ava Duvernay and her team from casting their own version of Superman to appear in the series.
So you're stating there is a 0% chance of them using the Superman from the very same network with 0% chance Duvernay and her team are entertaining the idea of using him?
Sure, you're right, just because it's CW doesn't automatically mean it's happening. On the other side, there's more factors working in the favour of it happening. Television characters have crossed over onto other shows done by other production companies often enough, Berlanti Productions not being involved really has zero bearing on this and is an odd factor to place all of one's argument on.
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