DC's "Naomi" coming to CW from Ava Duvernay

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by M'rk son of Mogh, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, I just double checked and you're right. I could sworn I saw his named listed under the executive producers.

    Technically it was a Vertigo comic, and as far as I know the comics took place in their own world with no connections to the DCU. So that's probably the show wasn't part of the Arrowverse.


    I'm pretty sure they would have listed him with the other producers in the article if he was involved.




    Constantine and Lucifer both took place in the DCU, but I, Zombie did not.
    Well technically, the Lucifer comics are spun off from a DCU comic, I'm not sure if they ever had any DCU connections in the Lucifer comic.
     
  2. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Lucifer is up for debate. Sandman, where the character first appeared, originally was set in the DCU--or at least had references to DC characters. But after the first few comics, no mention of the DCU was made. I have always assumed that as the series became more fully developed and became a founding Vertigo comic that any connections to the DCU were considered forgotten. In recent years the House of Mystery became connected with the DCU but I do not believe that it was at the time.
     
  3. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    According to both Wikipedia and the DC Database, both volume ones of House of Mystery and House of Secrets where published by DC Comics, with publication moving over to Vertigo in 2000s and 1990s respectively.

    Although the latter is probably best known for introducing Vertigo mainstay Swamp Thing, the feature character in vol 1 was typically the DC villain Eclipso, and the former was the home of Martian Manhunter for decades and also debuted Titans ally Robby Reed and his Hero Dial.
     
  4. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    DC ≠ DCU
     
  5. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, DC have published a lot of stuff over the years that doesn't take place in the DCU.
     
  6. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, a bunch of DC characters show up during Dream's wake in Sandman #71. Superman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, and several others were all there in the dream world. Also, Sandman the series was pretty firmly in the DC Universe even after it was done, because Dream II/Daniel showed up several times even Pre-New 52, most memorably (for me) when he saved the souls of his "parents" Hector and Lyta Hall. Death also showed up several times, most notably in the (very underrated) Action Comics run where Lex Luthor was the focus character, and that story's writer even got Gaiman's approval for Death's appearance, so I don't think he minded having the Sandman characters in the main DCU. Some of the other Endless also appeared a few times Pre-New 52, but Dream II and Death were the main ones.

    Plus, some of the most memorable moments in Sandman involved DC characters, although some were far from the main universe. Doctor Destiny, Element Girl and Prez all had amazing stories with them at the center. While Sandman can definitely stand on its, own, I never doubted that it was in the main DC universe at the time, just at a layer so removed from the normal books that they barely effected each other.
     
  7. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I remember the end of the Sandman series now--thanks for that--but I don't think I saw any of the other appearances you mentioned.
     
  8. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder if the Sandman show will be able to incorporate any of the DCU characters?
     
  9. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Potentially true.

    But not in this case. To reiterate:

    House of Mystery vol 1. Protagonist: Eclipso, former Spirit of Wrath to DC's "Presence", predecessor of Justice Society of America member, The Specter aka God's Spirit of Vengence. Regular antagonist to various magical solo heroes and super-teams within the DCU.

    House of Secrets vol. Protagonist: J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter, founder and most consistently enduring member of the Justice in it's various incarnations and leader of at least three itinerations (Justice League Detroit, Justice League Task Force and the brief Justice League of Aliens during the Justice Leagues affair).

    What's you counter example?
     
  10. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Commodore Commodore

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    Sweet Mother of God, you are such a nerd. When was the last time you got laid? (Without paying.)
     
  11. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    that was uncalled for
     
  12. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Commodore Commodore

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    I think it was, but YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  13. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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  14. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Wait, why is 90s Flash included here? If you're not counting Stargirl (or Superman Returns, Birds of Prey, Burton Batman, Batman 66, Green Lantern, Lucifer, Swamp Thing, DCEU, Titans, Doom Patrol...), why does that alternate universe get included?
     
  15. N-121973

    N-121973 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Possibly because there are Earth 1/Prime versions of some of the Flash 90 cast and Flash 90's role in the Elseworlds and COIE crossovers?
     
  16. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Routh Superman had a big Crisis role as well, and Birds of Prey shares versions of at least Batman, Alfred, Joker and Black Canary...
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Because those others only had one-shot cameos, most of them having no narrative effect on Arrowverse storylines, while Earth-90 and its Barry Allen played a significant narrative role in two major storylines, as well as having a more indirect ongoing influence through the Earth-1 doppelgangers of characters like Tina, the Trickster, and Bellows.

    Clearly, the intended implication of Crisis was that every DC screen universe (and comics universe, if you believe the comics tie-in special) is part of the same multiverse as the CW shows. So if you include every crossover world, then "Arrowverse" becomes synonymous with "DC in general" and becomes uselessly broad. It's more logical to save it for shows that have a meaningful, ongoing story connection to each other, rather than one-shot cameos. If and when Stargirl starts crossing over repeatedly with the other shows (which it probably will going forward), or if Earth-96 Superman or Lucifer should show up again, then we can add their worlds to the Arrowverse roster.


    The difference is that the Earth-90 characters and their Earth-1 doppelgangers were played by the same actors. They were "true" doppelgangers rather than just namesakes. We saw multiple Superman and Batman worlds in Crisis, also including Smallville and Batman '66 and '89, all of which had their own different versions of characters also appearing in the Arrowverse, but those characters are only implied; they didn't actually appear onscreen in an Arrowverse series. Only Flash '90 had the same actors appear in the Arrowverse as the same (or equivalent) characters in recurring roles.
     
  18. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Several reasons:
    1) Several actors from the 1990 Flash series appear in the 2014 Flash series as new versions of the characters they had portrayed 24 years earlier

    2) Footage from the 1990 Flash series is explicitly reused in the 2014 Flash series in order to provide background for certain characters who appear in both series; character information from the 1990 Flash series is also referenced in order to provide background for certain characters who appear in both series

    3) The 1990 Flash series has been officially declared to be explicitly Arrowverse Canon by the Arrowverse franchise's producers

    Edit: One could make the argument that Smallville and the Donnerverse (Earth 96) could also be viewed as being part of the Arrowverse franchise itself (given comments from Marc Guggenheim, former Arrow producer/Showrunner and supervising writer of the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover) rather than existing separate from but alongside it, but the official Canon of the Arrowverse franchise as laid out by the creators of the franchise doesn't explicitly do so.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
  19. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So Justice League: Disassembled will start this, and then we get New Justice League!
    (I mostly kid... I did love his early New Avengers, so this could be cool too)
     
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  20. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Meh; still seems very arbitrary.