Spoilers DC TV Arrow/Flash Universe Crossover Discussion

[dahj]

It just occurred to me: The reason for the invasion was to steal Supergirl's heart (err, literally, not romantically).

Yeah, they were a bit fuzzy on their motivation there.

There's a bit of dialogue in the first episode where Thawne chides Oliver-X for attacking before they were ready, but Oliver-X says they attacked the wedding because it was an unexpected opportunity to wipe everyone out, so it would appear they initially landed on Earth-1 without even knowing Supergirl would be there at all (just to conquer it I guess?), but then it becomes all about her heart? Anyways, yeah... fuzzy.

 

[Christopher]

There's a bit of dialogue in the first episode where Thawne chides Oliver-X for attacking before they were ready, but Oliver-X says they attacked the wedding because it was an unexpected opportunity to wipe everyone out, so it would appear they initially landed on Earth-1 without even knowing Supergirl would be there at all (just to conquer it I guess?), but then it becomes all about her heart? Anyways, yeah... fuzzy.

Maybe the plan was to get Supergirl first, then invade Earth-1 once General Overgirl was healed and at peak strength. The wedding let them do both at once, which in retrospect was a mistake (although Thawne's the only one still alive to have retrospect).

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Speaking of fuzzy, did they explain how The Ray ended up on Earth-X?

 

[dahj]

Speaking of fuzzy, did they explain how The Ray ended up on Earth-X?

Nope, presumably they'll do it in the animated prequel.

 

[Christopher]

I'm wondering if the original plan was to release the animated series first, so that the character would already be established, but it got delayed.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Maybe the plan was to get Supergirl first, then invade Earth-1 once General Overgirl was healed and at peak strength. The wedding let them do both at once, which in retrospect was a mistake (although Thawne's the only one still alive to have retrospect).

Well, we get that scene after the church attack fails where Reverse Flash, Dark Arrow and Overgirl are arguing. Reverse Flash chides them for moving too early and going off script. Dark Arrow defends the decision by saying that they moved early because they saw an opportunity at the church. I think that scene definitely supports what you said.

 

[Snaploud]

It just occurred to me: The reason for the invasion was to steal Supergirl's heart (err, literally, not romantically). So if Kara hadn't had her spur-of-the-moment impulse to accept the invitation to the wedding (which I assume Cisco delivered by breach mail), would the Nazis have invaded Earth-38 instead, while Barry and Iris's wedding went off without a hitch?

Alternatively, the Nazis may have originally been planning to scout-out the (as yet unseen) Kara-El of the Earth 1 universe and ended up going after the Earth 38 Kara instead.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Maybe Earth 1 came to their attention because of The Ray, so they picked it out, and assumed that all Earths have a Kara. It just so happened THIS Kara was the one they encountered.

 

[Finn]

How did Oliver get his hands on Kryptonite?

 

[Romulan_spy]

How did Oliver get his hands on Kryptonite?

Well, we know Batman exists on Earth-1, right? Maybe he gave some to Oliver?

 

[Snaploud]

How did Oliver get his hands on Kryptonite?

He has friends with people who have interdimensional transportation technology. I figure he asked Barry for a quick way to get to Earth 38 to get Kara's help in an emergency (or even provide a safe haven if the government is closing in).

 

[Scout101]

Hand waved over it in the dialog as far as I could tell, but can anyone even pretend to explain how Reverse Flash is still around at this point? Gotten beyond silly at this point, and even the fuzzy logic of time travel hijinks seems out the window with this guy.

So:

-Killed Barry's Mom, stuck in past, created Particle Accelerator, etc. Eddie kills himself so that RF is never born. SHOULD have wiped him completely, but will pretend that actions from his past/Flash's future still happen through the time remnant angle. With that, somewhat willing to forgive future appearances which happened PRIOR to Eddie's death from HIS POV, but are in the future for Team Flash. Not normal time travel logic, but ok, fine. He should matter less and less, though, because he shouldn't remember his eventual death, doesn't have the experience with Barry that the S1 RF did, hasn't been siphoning power from Barry so is weaker, etc. Should sorta fizzle out.

-Appearances in Legends are all just remnants, yes? So happened prior to his death/non-birth? Then again, he's being chased by Black Flash in that, so that means he's a duplicate instead of the 'original' time traveler, no? Bit confused there.

-How does Spear of Destiny fit in? Shouldn't that have been THE END of RF? It collected all his remnants, destroyed everything, and he didn't even exist after that, no? Wasn't that how it was sold? Of course, that's problematic in that it didn't change the memories of anyone, so if he really never existed, he can't have been Wells in S1, no Particle Accelerator explosion, Flash is created like 10 years later like in the original timeline, no? Without RF, the whole Flash show we've watched never happens. Massive change to the timeline (of multiple Earths now) if Barry isn't active until the mid-2020s, none of the current timeline happens anymore.

-How the heck does the crossover version of RF fit into this? After Spear of Destiny, thought that was THE END of RF. No more. Was supposed to be more important/powerful than time travel, so remnant doesn't make sense anymore. Could have been the Earth X version, as I guess you're only wiping him from existence of a single universe, but since they said explicitly that he was OUR RF, WTF?

-Also, letting him go is stupid. Don't want to kill him, fine? But just saying "eh, just go" mid-fight seems a poor way to win the day. At least knock him out/tie up/whatever? He was still free to screw with them if he chose, what a dumb moment.

Then again, since I can't figure out how he fits in anyway, no idea if he's just going to disappear into the ether when he time travels away, or if he's now existing and loose again...

 

[Nerys Myk]

How did Oliver get his hands on Kryptonite?

He knows people and those people know how to get things.

 

[Snaploud]

He knows people and those people know how to get things.

It fell off a truck.

 

[Finn]

Well, we know Batman exists on Earth-1, right? Maybe he gave some to Oliver?

Yes. I thought of this. I don’t see Oliver asking Barry or Cisco for a trip to Earth-38. I

 

[Snaploud]

I wonder if Earth 1 Kara-El and Kal-El are locked up in an Argus cell. Legends seems to be setting that group up to be a future Big Bad.

 

[Christopher]

My best guess about Thawne is that he's an anachronism, an iteration of Thawne that was pulled out of the timeline. Time Wraiths don't seem to go after anachronisms, so maybe that's protecting him somehow even though he shouldn't still exist. Basically, since the Legends "broke time," that may mean the normal rules -- or causality enforcement methods -- are no longer working as they should.

It's also possible that Mallus, the evil force behind the resurrection of Kuasa and Darhk on Legends, used some supernatural influence to rescue some iteration of Thawne from erasure, which might mean we could see a Legion of Doom semi-reunion on Legends later in the season. Hopefully with Thawne wearing his original face again, since Wells's face would be incongruous within the context of Legends.

 

[UssGlenn]

Maybe the plan was to get Supergirl first, then invade Earth-1 once General Overgirl was healed and at peak strength. The wedding let them do both at once, which in retrospect was a mistake (although Thawne's the only one still alive to have retrospect).

Well, we get that scene after the church attack fails where Reverse Flash, Dark Arrow and Overgirl are arguing. Reverse Flash chides them for moving too early and going off script. Dark Arrow defends the decision by saying that they moved early because they saw an opportunity at the church. I think that scene definitely supports what you said.

What happens under the original plan:
Supergirl is attacked on Earth 38, they take her back to Earth X and do the Operation, then Invade Earth 1
risk: Superman intervenes and the Nazis lose.
All heroes on Earth are scattered about. The Nazis take out the first hero through surprise and overwhelming force. All the other heroes can now get together and plan a strategic counterattack
risk: Heroes with time to plan beat the Nazis

New Plan:
Kara is away from all her team including Superman. The Nazis have the element of surprise on a large portion of the heroes on Earth 1. Without time for heroes to plan a counter-assault the Nazis win.
risk: what we saw in the episode.

 

[USS Firefly]

I wonder if Earth 1 Kara-El and Kal-El are locked up in an Argus cell. Legends seems to be setting that group up to be a future Big Bad.

I also wonder where they are in the Earth 1 universe.
And Arrow, Flash etc in the Earth 38 universe

 

[Christopher]

What happens under the original plan:
Supergirl is attacked on Earth 38, they take her back to Earth X and do the Operation, then Invade Earth 1
risk: Superman intervenes and the Nazis lose.
All heroes on Earth are scattered about. The Nazis take out the first hero through surprise and overwhelming force. All the other heroes can now get together and plan a strategic counterattack
risk: Heroes with time to plan beat the Nazis

New Plan:
Kara is away from all her team including Superman. The Nazis have the element of surprise on a large portion of the heroes on Earth 1. Without time for heroes to plan a counter-assault the Nazis win.
risk: what we saw in the episode.

On the other hand, there was an obvious downside to attacking a group that included at least seven superheroes, two semi-reformed supervillains, a DEO agent, and a bunch of cops. Taking them on in a group was riskier than taking them on individually. As we saw, the attack failed.

I also wonder where they are in the Earth 1 universe.
And Arrow, Flash etc in the Earth 38 universe

Just because Harry said there's one of everyone in every universe, that doesn't mean he's right. In his first visit to Earth-38, Barry couldn't find any sign of Cisco, Caitlin, or Harrison Wells in Central City, and Supergirl had never heard of any of the superheroes he mentioned. From what we've seen, it seems that some worlds have more doppelgangers of familiar characters than others. Earth-2 has a lot of Earth-1 doppelgangers, and so does Earth-X, but it doesn't seem that Earth-19 or Earth-38 does. If they are numbered in terms of their relative distance, maybe their populations get more divergent the further away you get. Although there do seem to be some near-constants, such as the ever-growing number of Harrison Wells doppelgangers. But of course, Earth-1 has no Harrison Wells, because Eobard Thawne killed him and took over his life a couple of decades ago.

Also, Earth-1 and Earth-38 seem pretty similar to each other and to our world in terms of their historical figures, entertainment figures, popular culture and music, etc. They have different presidents, though, presumably because Earth-1 hasn't had the same level of alien immigration that Earth-38 has had.