Could the Pike era have worked?

[Warped9]

Let's say, for discussion's sake, that NBC still decides to give Desilu another chance to make a second pilot. And let's say that they still make some cast suggestions including making the crew look distinctly more multiracial. They would prefer that Number One be recast, but they're not making a big issue out of it.

Let's also say Jeffrey Hunter decides to stick around for the second pilot and for the series.

Does Hunter come out of his shell and feel more fleshed out as things progress? Does Majel Barrett become more nuanced? Does John Hoyt return or do we still get DeForest Kelley?

There are a lot of variables involved and while it's interesting to read stories set in the Pike era (in books and comics) the real question is could Star Trek have worked if they had proceeded with mostly the same cast from the first pilot? Could the Pike era have worked and lasted beyond half a season or even one season?


There is no right or wrong answer beause it's impossible to know how things could have played out. So much would depend on the stories, the writing and the cast gelling together.

But could it have worked or were NBC's instincts inarguably right in insisting on the changes they wanted? All the basic elements were already there, but it can be argued NBC's criticisms forced GR and company to regroup and work out their ideas beter.


I don't know myself. It is an intriguing idea. And there's the retroactive interest in the Pike era--the prehistory to TOS--but that's based partly on that period adding additional colour to the TOS universe. If Pike and company had continued all of Trek as we know it would be rewritten.

So could it have worked?

Thoughts anyone?

 

[BillJ]

I think the biggest issue in "The Cage" (in my opinion), was the fact that there wasn't a lot of chemistry between Hunter, Barrett and Nimoy.

So, I don't know?

 

[RandyS]

You could make the argument that to answer this question, you don't need to look any further than season 1 of TNG. Picard in particular was a literal redo of Pike ("Number One", "engage", and all that), and the cast were more stiff and formal than they would be later.

 

[BillJ]

You could make the argument that to answer this question, you don't need to look any further than season 1 of TNG. Picard in particular was a literal redo of Pike ("Number One", "engage", and all that), and the cast were more stiff and formal than they would be later.

It's tough to make that argument, because the people involved are different. What works in one situation doesn't always work in others.

 

[RandyS]

You could make the argument that to answer this question, you don't need to look any further than season 1 of TNG. Picard in particular was a literal redo of Pike ("Number One", "engage", and all that), and the cast were more stiff and formal than they would be later.

It's tough to make that argument, because the people involved are different. What works in one situation doesn't always work in others.

Well, I didn't mean it was perfect analogy. But, you could see Roddenberry recycling his earlier ideas there.

 

[Kor]

My first thought was that the more cerebral tone might not have worked on a weekly show that the network execs expected to be action/adventure-oriented.

But that kind of tone worked just fine for The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits. However, they weren't exactly "action-adventure." What if Trek had turned out more like those shows?

Kor

 

[Warped9]

I've long thought that early TNG was reminiscent (in some respects) of "The Cage," but GR did originally plan for Pike to be more action oriented (like Kirk) rather than more stay-at-home like Picard.

We could have gotten a wholly different dynamic than what we got in TOS, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't have clicked in its own way.

Hunter was basically a movie actor who had delved into television. GR and company considered him a catch. But could Hunter have grown to carry the series in his own way as Shatner had in his own way?

The story of "The Cage" required Pike to begin somewhat defeated and played out. To that end Pike comes across as not that engaged until things got going. But could he have played a more engaged character the way Shatner threw himself into the role?

Whatever one says of Shatner he evidently saw the potential of the show and put his all into making it work. And he deftly telegraphed a variety of emotions throughout the second pilot.

When I look at Pike I see potential for an interesting character, but in WNMHGB we see Shatner really bring Kirk to life right out of the gate. Indeed I think the major players of the second pilot cast bring their A game to bring the story to life.

So the question is whether the first pilot cast could have done the same thing given the chance to do the second pilot.

 

[Christopher]

Let's say, for discussion's sake, that NBC still decides to give Desilu another chance to make a second. And let's say that they still make some cast suggestions including making the crew look distinctly more multiracial. They would prefer that Number One be recast, but they're not making a big issue out of it.

Let's also say Jeffrey Hunter decides to stick around for the second pilot and for the series.

Does Hunter come out of his shell and feel more fleshed out as things progress? Does Majel Barrett become more nuanced? Does John Hoyt return or do we still get DeForest Kelley?

I'm not convinced the network would ever have okayed Barrett. Even aside from the issue of whether she was a strong enough actress to carry a lead role (which she probably wasn't at the time, though she was really good by the TNG years), there's the scandal of the producer casting his own mistress as one of the stars.

I'm more interested in the scenario where Roddenberry bent on the Number One issue and recast the role. Who might have been Number One instead? Lee Meriwether and Julie Newmar both strike me as strong prospects. Maybe Diana Muldaur or Lee Grant.

There are a lot of variables involved and while it's interesting to read stories set in the Pike era (in books and comics) the real question is could Star Trek have worked if they had proceeded with mostly the same cast from the first pilot? Could the Pike era have worked and lasted beyond half a season or even one season?

Clearly NBC didn't think so, and I can't blame them. We like to romanticize the Pike era because we saw so little of it, but really, the original cast was pretty underwhelming. First drafts don't always work.

But could it have worked or were NBC's instincts inarguably right in insisting on the changes they wanted? All the basic elements were already there, but it can be argued NBC's criticisms forced GR and company to regroup and work out there ideas beter.

No question. While a female first officer would've been a progressive move, the all-white core cast (with a very blond guy given a token Hispanic first name) would've been an embarrassment in retrospect, and wouldn't have made the series as inspiring and important as it was. And the ensemble we ended up with was better than the original. Also, Spock probably wouldn't have been as compelling a character if the emotional reserve from Number One hadn't been given to him. A continuing Number One with emotional reserve might've had potential, but it was too much a sexist stereotype, the idea that a woman had to be an unfeeling ice queen in order to function in a man's job, because otherwise her inherent emotional instability would disqualify her. Giving the emotional reserve to a male character avoided that gendered baggage.

You could make the argument that to answer this question, you don't need to look any further than season 1 of TNG. Picard in particular was a literal redo of Pike ("Number One", "engage", and all that), and the cast were more stiff and formal than they would be later.

Not exactly. There were elements of Pike in Picard, but much of the premise of TNG was a rehash of the abortive Star Trek: Phase II sequel series that became ST:TMP. Picard corresponded to the older Kirk, a seasoned veteran who has a legendary career behind him and has matured into a mentor role; Riker was Will Decker, the young Kirk Jr. and captain-in-training who would take over as the action lead; and Deanna was Ilia, the sensual alien empath with a complicated romantic history with the first officer. Data was a blend of Phase II's Xon, a logical science officer eagerly seeking to learn more about human emotion so he can relate to them better, and the title character of The Questor Tapes, an android seeking to understand his own origins and purpose.

No, if you want to see what more Pike would've been like, look at first-season Kirk. He's exactly the same character -- ultra-serious, disciplined, driven, prone to bouts of insecurity where he needs his doctor friend to counsel him, craving female companionship but too duty-bound to seek it out, and initially uneasy having a female yeoman. If Pike had stayed, he would've been written exactly like Kirk was. Any differences would've come from the different personality that Hunter brought to the role, as the writers eventually adjusted the scripts to fit that persona.

I've long thought that early TNG was reminiscent (in some respects) of "The Cage," but GR did originally plan for Pike to be more action oriented (like Kirk) rather than more stay-at-home like Picard.

I can easily see that. The script may have been "cerebral" (although Inside Star Trek says that was really network-exec code for "too sexy"), but Pike himself did not come across as an intellectual. This was a guy who beat the super-brainy Talosians by being more primitive, macho, and aggressive than they could handle. Of the two, Kirk's the one who comes off as more erudite and thoughtful. Hunter's Pike is more of a blunt instrument.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I don't completely agree because Shatner is a different actor than Hunter. The question is whether Hunter could have played the character as successfully as Shatner did over the course of a series? I'm not that familiar with Hunter's film and television resume so I don't know how much range he was capable of.

And in my thought experiment I didn't insist Majel Barrett be kept on. GR could have recast Number One as suggested.

 

[Harvey]

Has anyone here seen Temple Huston, the one season Western that Hunter starred in before Star Trek? That might give one a better idea of what his range might have been over the course of a series than just "The Menagerie."

(I haven't seen it.)

 

[Warped9]

Has anyone here seen Temple Huston, the one season Western that Hunter starred in before Star Trek? That might give one a better idea of what his range might have been over the course of a series than just "The Menagerie."

(I haven't seen it.)

I wonder if it can be seen on YouTube. I've seen Hunter as Christ and in the 1958 film The Last Hurrah with Spencer Tracy. Christ was played rather serene and contemplative and so not a lot of range needed there. From what I recall in his film with Spencer Tracy he didn't make that much of an impression on me.

 

[BillJ]

Has anyone here seen Temple Huston, the one season Western that Hunter starred in before Star Trek? That might give one a better idea of what his range might have been over the course of a series than just "The Menagerie."

(I haven't seen it.)

I wonder if it can be seen on YouTube. I've seen Hunter as Christ and in the 1958 film The Last Hurrah with Spencer Tracy. Christ was played rather serene and contemplative and so not a lot of range needed there. From what I recall in his film with Spencer Tracy he didn't make that much of an impression on me.

Not on YouTube.

 

[Warped9]

Some scenes from Temple Houston.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lebjNXv11sA

Yeah, he had some range.

 

[Greg Cox]

Has anyone here seen Temple Huston, the one season Western that Hunter starred in before Star Trek? That might give one a better idea of what his range might have been over the course of a series than just "The Menagerie."

(I haven't seen it.)

I wonder if it can be seen on YouTube. I've seen Hunter as Christ and in the 1958 film The Last Hurrah with Spencer Tracy. Christ was played rather serene and contemplative and so not a lot of range needed there. From what I recall in his film with Spencer Tracy he didn't make that much of an impression on me.

He's also prominently featured in The Searchers, where he plays a troubled, insecure young man who plays second fiddle to John Wayne, so it's hard to extrapolate from there as to who his Pike might have evolved into.

 

[Admiral2]

Fine. I'll be the confident one.

Yes. In fact it could have worked better.

After that pilot NBC asked Roddenberry for two major changes: Get rid of the guy with the ears and don't make your girlfriend the first officer. Had he done both those things, but fought for a female Number One played by someone else, what you'd be left with is a progressive, unique-for-its-time science fiction series with a crew that a broader audience could have related to. Add in Gene reining in his desperate attempt to retell Forbidden Planet (an attempt made by the writers over and over again throughout the TOS run) and sticking to the "Wagon Train in space" concept, I think a Pike led trek could have had a very successful multiseason run.

Jeffrey Hunter wasn't iconic, but he was a very good actor, hobbled in the first pilot by the needs of the story (Pike's essentially suffering from survivors' guilt and his detractors here talk about him like he's just a stern asshole). Give him other stories where he could demonstrate his range and he would have. Just because no one did doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

If I were given the chance to do a trek series (relax, people - of course that will never happen) I would do a Pike series, however I could manage it.

 

[Christopher]

^^ I don't completely agree because Shatner is a different actor than Hunter.

Well, yes, that's my point. First-season Kirk was written exactly like Pike. The difference was in how the actors interpreted the script. (Like Maverick. James Garner and Jack Kelly alternated as Maverick brothers for scheduling reasons, and they were assigned scripts interchangeably, with no difference in how they were written; but they played them differently enough that they felt like extremely distinct characters.) Had Hunter remained, he would've had the same scripted characterization to work with that Shatner did, though presumably he would've interpreted it in his own way. And I'm not sure he could've brought the same warmth and sensitivity to the scripted character that Shatner did.

 

[CrazyMatt]

I'm going to steal Joel_Kirks' mojo here.... well, maybe just borrow it.

One of GR's major points of pride for the series was the multinational/multiethnic (indeed, multiplanetary) crew. And yet in "The Cage," outside of Spock, where was that evident? The rest of the crew, from the captain on down, looks like it came from Iowa (I like Iowa, by the way.... so don't hit me back on that).

Here are few pics to buttress my point:

Yes, yes, he was trying to sell a series, but if that was his motivation, why was there a much more diverse crew seen in WNMHGB? What happened between 1964 and 1965 that led him to replace members of his WASP crew with an Asian, a Scottsman, and an African-American???

Bottom line: The composition of the crew in "The Cage" didn't support one of the key values of the series, and wouldn't have worked.

 

[Christopher]

One of GR's major points of pride for the series was the multinational/multiethnic (indeed, multiplanetary) crew. And yet in "The Cage," outside of Spock, where was that evident? The rest of the crew, from the captain on down, looks like it came from Iowa (I like Iowa, by the way.... so don't hit me back on that).

Here are few pics to buttress my point:

Well, the really, really blond guy on the far left was supposedly named "Jose," though his first name was never spoken onscreen...

Yes, yes, he was trying to sell a series, but if that was his motivation, why was there a much more diverse crew seen in WNMHGB? What happened between 1964 and 1965 that led him to replace members of his WASP crew with an Asian, a Scottsman, and an African-American???

According to Inside Star Trek, the network specifically asked for a diverse crew, because recent studies had demonstrated the buying power of minority audiences, so networks had realized it was in their financial interest to attract a more diverse viewership. Roddenberry promised them a multiethnic crew and failed to deliver, which was one of the reasons they were unsatisfied with the pilot cast and asked him to go back and try again.

Although other contemporary shows did better in that regard. Shows like I Spy, Mission: Impossible, and Land of the Giants added African-American actors as leads, rather than just supporting players who never got focus stories.

 

[Warped9]

An excerpt from The Last Hurrah (1958) starring Spencer Tracy and Jeffrey Hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DjU33L2NZc

 

[Kor]

Yes, yes, he was trying to sell a series, but if that was his motivation, why was there a much more diverse crew seen in WNMHGB? What happened between 1964 and 1965 that led him to replace members of his WASP crew with an Asian, a Scottsman, and an African-American???

Bottom line: The composition of the crew in "The Cage" didn't support one of the key values of the series, and wouldn't have worked.

Uhura wasn't in WNMHGB. She came with the additional recasting after that.

I think the racial makeup of the crew in WNMHGB was very similar to The Cage, except that the one Asian character got a name, appeared on the bridge, and had a speaking role, instead of being confined to the transporter room console with no dialog like the technician in The Cage.

Kor