Controversies between fans based on misunderstandings

[Darren Mooney]

The question of how they could have missed a planet exploding not to mention that they could simply count the planets around the star in TWOK is a tough one.

I tried to rationalize this in a novel by suggesting that, entering the solar system from the outside, and counting backwards from the outer edge of the solar system, one could easily assume that Alpha Ceti V was Alpha Ceti VI if you had absolutely no reason to suspect that an entire planet had gone missing. Especially since, in real life, solar systems are huge and the planets aren't neatly lined up in a row the way they are in textbooks.

(Granted, this assumes that nobody used any long-range scanners to count the number of planets in the solar system, but why would they? Planets don't routinely disappear.)

As for nobody noticing that a planet exploded . . . well, space is big and this system was supposed to be way off the beaten track, which is why they were thinking of testing the super-secret Genesis Device there in the first place. It was a remote, largely unexplored system that nobody had visited for decades, so the planet's explosion went unnoticed.

It's not like Vulcan blew up or something.

.

This is something I always wondered personally: why do fans seem to assume Kirk mentioned stranding Khan to Starfleet?

The guy is a genocidal mass murderer, responsible for untold war crimes and destruction. If you told the world governments that you'd found Adolf Hitler in space, but given him his own planet, it seems unlikely they'd shrug their shoulders and go "your call."

I always assumed that Starfleet didn't know about Khan. That would explain why they'd be so reckless as to test the device next door, and maybe even why they wouldn't feel the need to count the planets when entering the system. After all, it's not that big a screw-up when you take the genocidal madman out of the equation. "Hn, wrong planet. Move along, nothing to see here."

Given the themes of the film, I've always figured Kirk never told anybody off his ship about Khan due to his own arrogance and hubris. And so everything comes home to roost.

(Then again, I like the script's implication that Kirk never knew about David more than the "you told me to stay away" logic the film handwaves.)

 

[kirkfan]

Can count them?

Probably, but given that they were only looking for a planet for a terra-forming experiment, why would they instruct the computer to scan the entire system?

They just looked in the "goldilocks" zone, and no where else.

In order to calculate the orbit of one planet you have to take into account (at the very least) all planets of the solar system, plus any object of significant size. Every astronomer knows that. That's at that point that you realize: "Hey! There's only eight of them! What happened to the ninth one?"

 

[Nebusj]

(Granted, this assumes that nobody used any long-range scanners to count the number of planets in the solar system, but why would they? Planets don't routinely disappear.)

They don't? Greg, did you see the second season of the Original Series yet? Planets get blown up or eaten by space amoebas all the time.

(But to continue with the pretty silly rationalizations: the planets would most likely be numbered in order of discovery, which does not necessarily have anything to do with how far they are from the central star. Anyway, if a planet's in about the spot where a planet's expected to be, why would you double-check that it isn't some other planet instead, except of course that this sort of thing does happen in the Trek universe all the time.)

 

[Nebusj]

In order to calculate the orbit of one planet you have to take into account (at the very least) all planets of the solar system, plus any object of significant size. Every astronomer knows that. That's at that point that you realize: "Hey! There's only eight of them! What happened to the ninth one?"

Not ... really. I mean, if need to know to launch a (erm) Voyager-style probe that uses a string of gravitational assists to get somewhere you do, and if you need to know where the planets are going to be 250 million years hence --- a topic very interesting to mathematical physicists but one we really don't have to worry about --- you do, but for ordinary short-term uses you just don't need that much precision. If you just care where the Earth is going to be for the next thousand years it doesn't matter whether there's a planet between Mars and Jupiter or not.

 

[kirkfan]

(Granted, this assumes that nobody used any long-range scanners to count the number of planets in the solar system, but why would they? Planets don't routinely disappear.)

They don't? Greg, did you see the second season of the Original Series yet? Planets get blown up or eaten by space amoebas all the time.

(But to continue with the pretty silly rationalizations: the planets would most likely be numbered in order of discovery, which does not necessarily have anything to do with how far they are from the central star. Anyway, if a planet's in about the spot where a planet's expected to be, why would you double-check that it isn't some other planet instead, except of course that this sort of thing does happen in the Trek universe all the time.)

I think this mistaken planet affair is way too much of a stretch, fortunately the movie is so exceptional, that it's worth forgetting about it, while you're watching it.

 

[borgboy]

The question of how they could have missed a planet exploding not to mention that they could simply count the planets around the star in TWOK is a tough one.

I tried to rationalize this in a novel by suggesting that, entering the solar system from the outside, and counting backwards from the outer edge of the solar system, one could easily assume that Alpha Ceti V was Alpha Ceti VI if you had absolutely no reason to suspect that an entire planet had gone missing. Especially since, in real life, solar systems are huge and the planets aren't neatly lined up in a row the way they are in textbooks.

(Granted, this assumes that nobody used any long-range scanners to count the number of planets in the solar system, but why would they? Planets don't routinely disappear.)

As for nobody noticing that a planet exploded . . . well, space is big and this system was supposed to be way off the beaten track, which is why they were thinking of testing the super-secret Genesis Device there in the first place. It was a remote, largely unexplored system that nobody had visited for decades, so the planet's explosion went unnoticed.

It's not like Vulcan blew up or something.

.

This is something I always wondered personally: why do fans seem to assume Kirk mentioned stranding Khan to Starfleet?

The guy is a genocidal mass murderer, responsible for untold war crimes and destruction. If you told the world governments that you'd found Adolf Hitler in space, but given him his own planet, it seems unlikely they'd shrug their shoulders and go "your call."

I always assumed that Starfleet didn't know about Khan. That would explain why they'd be so reckless as to test the device next door, and maybe even why they wouldn't feel the need to count the planets when entering the system. After all, it's not that big a screw-up when you take the genocidal madman out of the equation. "Hn, wrong planet. Move along, nothing to see here."

Given the themes of the film, I've always figured Kirk never told anybody off his ship about Khan due to his own arrogance and hubris. And so everything comes home to roost.

(Then again, I like the script's implication that Kirk never knew about David more than the "you told me to stay away" logic the film handwaves.)

I've never really had a firm grasp on whether Kirk knew about David before STII or not. The film is surprisingly ambiguous about it, and I think the novels are a little contradictory about it. Anybody with a better memory than me know what evidence we have for and against Kirk knowing about David?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Well, the fact that Kirk knew David's name (he asks Carol "Is that...David?") does seem rather telling. If Kirk didn't know he had a son, why would he have said that?

 

[Kilana2]

If my memory serves me right, according to Inception (S.D. Perry) Carol Marcus wanted to tell Kirk about her pregnancy, but refrained from doing so. But that´s just one novel. Fact is, Kirk stayed away from David´s childhood.

 

[kirkfan]

^ Well, the fact that Kirk knew David's name (he asks Carol "Is that...David?") does seem rather telling. If Kirk didn't know he had a son, why would he have said that?

Yes, that's compelling evidence.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

(Granted, this assumes that nobody used any long-range scanners to count the number of planets in the solar system, but why would they? Planets don't routinely disappear.)

They don't? Greg, did you see the second season of the Original Series yet? Planets get blown up or eaten by space amoebas all the time.

Obviously, the Reliant was just really overdue to update its GPS.

^ Well, the fact that Kirk knew David's name (he asks Carol "Is that...David?") does seem rather telling. If Kirk didn't know he had a son, why would he have said that?

Yes, that's compelling evidence.

I believe that they did some rewriting and reshooting on the Genesis Cave scenes to clarify these points a bit, as it was originally even more ambiguous just how much Kirk knew about David's existence. I think in the original version, David overpowered Kirk instead of the other way around, too.

 

[Therin of Andor]

There is zero chance that Australia was a UE member prior to 2150, as per Crusher's informed argument. Zero, that is, unless Crusher is ignorant in Earth history.

I dunno, after a successful guest stint last year in the annual Eurovision Song Contest, we've just been given a spot and voting rights in the next one!

Aussie rules!

 

[Therin of Andor]

I've heard that Valeris was named by her actress- after Greek goddess Eris. She added 'Val-' to make the name more 'vulcan'. I suppose T'Eris would be too obvious for many people.

Cattrall wanted Eris, and Meyer added the prefix. Early script drafts say "SAAVIK" and the revised shooting script calls her "VAL'ERIS". By the time of the closing credits, she'd become Valeris.

 

[Greg Cox]

I've never really had a firm grasp on whether Kirk knew about David before STII or not. The film is surprisingly ambiguous about it, and I think the novels are a little contradictory about it. Anybody with a better memory than me know what evidence we have for and against Kirk knowing about David?

My impression is that Kirk certainly knew of David's existence, but had had no contact with Carol for years, so he had no idea what David looked like. At best, she'd maybe shared some baby pictures with him years and years ago.

"I did what you asked. I stayed away," etc.

In other words, Carol had asked him not to be part of David's life and he had respected her wishes. Doesn't mean he didn't know that he had a son named David out there somewhere.

 

[Darren Mooney]

[

I've never really had a firm grasp on whether Kirk knew about David before STII or not. The film is surprisingly ambiguous about it, and I think the novels are a little contradictory about it. Anybody with a better memory than me know what evidence we have for and against Kirk knowing about David?

My impression is that Kirk certainly knew of David's existence, but had had no contact with Carol for years, so he had no idea what David looked like. At best, she'd maybe shared some baby pictures with him years and years ago.

"I did what you asked. I stayed away," etc.

In other words, Carol had asked him not to be part of David's life and he had respected her wishes. Doesn't mean he didn't know that he had a son named David out there somewhere.

Although the script was decidedly clear in the other direction, with cut dialogue:

KIRK
Carol. Is that true?

She nods --

KIRK
(continuing)
Why didn't you tell me?

Source: IMSDb

 

[kirkfan]

(Granted, this assumes that nobody used any long-range scanners to count the number of planets in the solar system, but why would they? Planets don't routinely disappear.)

They don't? Greg, did you see the second season of the Original Series yet? Planets get blown up or eaten by space amoebas all the time.

Obviously, the Reliant was just really overdue to update its GPS.

^ Well, the fact that Kirk knew David's name (he asks Carol "Is that...David?") does seem rather telling. If Kirk didn't know he had a son, why would he have said that?

Yes, that's compelling evidence.

I believe that they did some rewriting and reshooting on the Genesis Cave scenes to clarify these points a bit, as it was originally even more ambiguous just how much Kirk knew about David's existence. I think in the original version, David overpowered Kirk instead of the other way around, too.

It's hard to imagine Kirk being overpowered by that boy.

 

[T'Girl]

I always assumed that Starfleet didn't know about Khan.

I don't buy that. Everyone aboard would have known about the take over and subsequent gassing at minimum, plus one of Kirk's crew was gone. Add fifteen years and the story would have gotten out.

More likely is that Kirk reported events truthfully and in detail, including the final disposition of McGivers. Starfleet Command reviewed and approved of Kirk's actions.

 

[Greg Cox]

I always assumed that Starfleet didn't know about Khan.

I don't buy that. Everyone aboard would have known about the take over and subsequent gassing at minimum, plus one of Kirk's crew was gone. Add fifteen years and the story would have gotten out.

More likely is that Kirk reported events truthfully and in detail, including the final disposition of McGivers. Starfleet Command reviewed and approved of Kirk's actions.

Kirk did occasionally fudge his reports (see "Metamorphosis"), but I always figured that, in this case, the discovery of Khan was strictly classified and revealed only on a need-to-know basis. Alas, in the case of Captain Terrell's equally top-secret mission, Starfleet's right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. (Never mind Chekov and Kyle both being aboard Reliant.)

As for Marla, I assumed she was simply listed as "missing in action."

(In the books, I established that Marla was an only child and orphan with no close family connections, just to explain why nobody looked too deeply into her disappearance.)

 

[JoeZhang]

There is zero chance that Australia was a UE member prior to 2150, as per Crusher's informed argument. Zero, that is, unless Crusher is ignorant in Earth history.

I dunno, after a successful guest stint last year in the annual Eurovision Song Contest, we've just been given a spot and voting rights in the next one!

Aussie rules!

Plus she is talking about something about two hundred years beforehand - if you went out on the street and asked the average european citizen to list the members of the EU, they likely couldn't.

 

[kirkfan]

I always assumed that Starfleet didn't know about Khan.

I don't buy that. Everyone aboard would have known about the take over and subsequent gassing at minimum, plus one of Kirk's crew was gone. Add fifteen years and the story would have gotten out.

More likely is that Kirk reported events truthfully and in detail, including the final disposition of McGivers. Starfleet Command reviewed and approved of Kirk's actions.

Kirk did occasionally fudge his reports (see "Metamorphosis"), but I always figured that, in this case, the discovery of Khan was strictly classified and revealed only on a need-to-know basis. Alas, in the case of Captain Terrell's equally top-secret mission, Starfleet's right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. (Never mind Chekov and Kyle both being aboard Reliant.)

As for Marla, I assumed she was simply listed as "missing in action."

(In the books, I established that Marla was an only child and orphan with no close family connections, just to explain why nobody looked too deeply into her disappearance.)

Who's Maria? And excuse me if I don't know all the one time shot characters on a first name basis.

 

[borgboy]

I don't buy that. Everyone aboard would have known about the take over and subsequent gassing at minimum, plus one of Kirk's crew was gone. Add fifteen years and the story would have gotten out.

More likely is that Kirk reported events truthfully and in detail, including the final disposition of McGivers. Starfleet Command reviewed and approved of Kirk's actions.

Kirk did occasionally fudge his reports (see "Metamorphosis"), but I always figured that, in this case, the discovery of Khan was strictly classified and revealed only on a need-to-know basis. Alas, in the case of Captain Terrell's equally top-secret mission, Starfleet's right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. (Never mind Chekov and Kyle both being aboard Reliant.)

As for Marla, I assumed she was simply listed as "missing in action."

(In the books, I established that Marla was an only child and orphan with no close family connections, just to explain why nobody looked too deeply into her disappearance.)

Who's Maria? And excuse me if I don't know all the one time shot characters on a first name basis.

Khan's wife - Marla, who was a Starfleet officer.