Controversies between fans based on misunderstandings

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by alpha_leonis, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. Darren Mooney

    Darren Mooney Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    .

    This is something I always wondered personally: why do fans seem to assume Kirk mentioned stranding Khan to Starfleet?

    The guy is a genocidal mass murderer, responsible for untold war crimes and destruction. If you told the world governments that you'd found Adolf Hitler in space, but given him his own planet, it seems unlikely they'd shrug their shoulders and go "your call."

    I always assumed that Starfleet didn't know about Khan. That would explain why they'd be so reckless as to test the device next door, and maybe even why they wouldn't feel the need to count the planets when entering the system. After all, it's not that big a screw-up when you take the genocidal madman out of the equation. "Hn, wrong planet. Move along, nothing to see here."

    Given the themes of the film, I've always figured Kirk never told anybody off his ship about Khan due to his own arrogance and hubris. And so everything comes home to roost.

    (Then again, I like the script's implication that Kirk never knew about David more than the "you told me to stay away" logic the film handwaves.)
     
  2. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    In order to calculate the orbit of one planet you have to take into account (at the very least) all planets of the solar system, plus any object of significant size. Every astronomer knows that. That's at that point that you realize: "Hey! There's only eight of them! What happened to the ninth one?" ;)
     
  3. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They don't? Greg, did you see the second season of the Original Series yet? Planets get blown up or eaten by space amoebas all the time.

    (But to continue with the pretty silly rationalizations: the planets would most likely be numbered in order of discovery, which does not necessarily have anything to do with how far they are from the central star. Anyway, if a planet's in about the spot where a planet's expected to be, why would you double-check that it isn't some other planet instead, except of course that this sort of thing does happen in the Trek universe all the time.)
     
  4. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not ... really. I mean, if need to know to launch a (erm) Voyager-style probe that uses a string of gravitational assists to get somewhere you do, and if you need to know where the planets are going to be 250 million years hence --- a topic very interesting to mathematical physicists but one we really don't have to worry about --- you do, but for ordinary short-term uses you just don't need that much precision. If you just care where the Earth is going to be for the next thousand years it doesn't matter whether there's a planet between Mars and Jupiter or not.
     
  5. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    I think this mistaken planet affair is way too much of a stretch, fortunately the movie is so exceptional, that it's worth forgetting about it, while you're watching it.
     
  6. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I've never really had a firm grasp on whether Kirk knew about David before STII or not. The film is surprisingly ambiguous about it, and I think the novels are a little contradictory about it. Anybody with a better memory than me know what evidence we have for and against Kirk knowing about David?
     
  7. Dr. San Guinary

    Dr. San Guinary Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Well, the fact that Kirk knew David's name (he asks Carol "Is that...David?") does seem rather telling. If Kirk didn't know he had a son, why would he have said that?
     
  8. Kill Anna

    Kill Anna Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If my memory serves me right, according to Inception (S.D. Perry) Carol Marcus wanted to tell Kirk about her pregnancy, but refrained from doing so. But that´s just one novel. Fact is, Kirk stayed away from David´s childhood.
     
  9. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    Yes, that's compelling evidence.
     
  10. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Obviously, the Reliant was just really overdue to update its GPS. ;)

    I believe that they did some rewriting and reshooting on the Genesis Cave scenes to clarify these points a bit, as it was originally even more ambiguous just how much Kirk knew about David's existence. I think in the original version, David overpowered Kirk instead of the other way around, too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  11. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    I dunno, after a successful guest stint last year in the annual Eurovision Song Contest, we've just been given a spot and voting rights in the next one!

    Aussie rules!
     
  12. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Cattrall wanted Eris, and Meyer added the prefix. Early script drafts say "SAAVIK" and the revised shooting script calls her "VAL'ERIS". By the time of the closing credits, she'd become Valeris.
     
  13. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    My impression is that Kirk certainly knew of David's existence, but had had no contact with Carol for years, so he had no idea what David looked like. At best, she'd maybe shared some baby pictures with him years and years ago.

    "I did what you asked. I stayed away," etc.

    In other words, Carol had asked him not to be part of David's life and he had respected her wishes. Doesn't mean he didn't know that he had a son named David out there somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  14. Darren Mooney

    Darren Mooney Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Although the script was decidedly clear in the other direction, with cut dialogue:

    Source: IMSDb
     
  15. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    It's hard to imagine Kirk being overpowered by that boy.
     
  16. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't buy that. Everyone aboard would have known about the take over and subsequent gassing at minimum, plus one of Kirk's crew was gone. Add fifteen years and the story would have gotten out.

    More likely is that Kirk reported events truthfully and in detail, including the final disposition of McGivers. Starfleet Command reviewed and approved of Kirk's actions.

    :)
     
  17. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Kirk did occasionally fudge his reports (see "Metamorphosis"), but I always figured that, in this case, the discovery of Khan was strictly classified and revealed only on a need-to-know basis. Alas, in the case of Captain Terrell's equally top-secret mission, Starfleet's right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. (Never mind Chekov and Kyle both being aboard Reliant.)

    As for Marla, I assumed she was simply listed as "missing in action."

    (In the books, I established that Marla was an only child and orphan with no close family connections, just to explain why nobody looked too deeply into her disappearance.)
     
  18. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Plus she is talking about something about two hundred years beforehand - if you went out on the street and asked the average european citizen to list the members of the EU, they likely couldn't.
     
  19. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    Who's Maria? And excuse me if I don't know all the one time shot characters on a first name basis.
     
  20. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    Khan's wife - Marla, who was a Starfleet officer.