Spoilers Continuation of 25th Century Trek?

[Uhura's Song]

Nope.

Yep. The whole point if the show it to make Trek "like it used to be." Episodic. Exploration. Gene's vision. No crew conflict. Enterprise 1701. Spock. Uhura. Pike. Number One. Chapel. M'Benga. A Noonien-Singh? Ortegas & Hemmer were the only truly new characters. Out of 9, 6 are legacy, 2 are new, and one is a descendent of a legacy character. One of the two new characters dies.

Your counter is, what, some of the legacy characters are not as well defined? Spock & Uhura surely are. Pike did feature in JJ Trek movies. And that ignores the overwhelming tonal choices, the setting, the uniforms. It is a TOS nostalgia show. Wanna bet we get Scotty soon?

I don't see a huge difference between exploring new ground with a legacy character with a new actor as opposed to the original one.

Look, ALL the shows have legacy/nostalgia to some degree, post TOS.

As I said, TNG had the hardest time, given the time elapsed. At the beginning, other than the McCoy cameo and, well, it being ON the Enterprise (D), they could not do much. Data being a twist on the Spock/humanity angle. But going forward we got Spock & Scotty. Plus Kirk, Scott, and Checkov in Generations.

The handoff to DS9 had Sisko on Enterprise, the O'Briens, and was supposed to feature Ro. Bashir crossed over. Q did. Mrs. Troi. Vash. And Worf. And lots of other Klingons.

Voyager was a cleaner break, given their circumstances. But we still got Barclay, Troi, & Riker near the end. And Quark & Morn in Caretaker.

Enterprise got nostalgic at the end, as was rightly pointed out. But aside from T'Pau, and Zefram Cochrane in the opener, not the characters themselves. Harder in the beginning, but Archer's Klingon trial/conviction/escape was lifted right out of TUC.

DISCO was a cleaner break to start, but we still got Sarek, Amanda, Spock, Pike, Enterprise, and Una by S2. And Burnham IS Spock's half-sister.

Picard is literally a show centered on the Captain from TNG. I applaud them for not going there right away, but it HAD to be done. Nemesis could not be the swan song for that Crew. And I am so happy it wasn't.

LD is a Berman era loveletter, pure and simple.

PRO has Janeway and Chakotay.

Academy is a DISCO spinoff as is the S31 movie with Yeoh.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Are all the anti-nostalgia, anti-S3 Picard folks just DISCO fans who are butt-hurt because it got cancelled?

Asking for a friend.

 

[Mudd]

Yep. The whole point if the show it to make Trek "like it used to be." Episodic. Exploration. Gene's vision. No crew conflict...

Reuse of source material is not "nostalgia" as such. Nostalgia is a word that means something.

 

[fireproof78]

Are all the anti-nostalgia, anti-S3 Picard folks just DISCO fans who are butt-hurt because it got cancelled?

Asking for a friend.

Not me.

 

[fireproof78]

The response to this is typically, "I just don't want nostalgia for nostalgia's sake," or, "I don't want the nostalgia to be distracting and take away from the story," but what inevitably happens is that any and all past references/callbacks/whatever get categorized as the bad and distracting kind.

The only reason it bothers me right now is that the current season is pitched as "best ever." And nostalgia is not the best thing ever to me.

Do I want Trek as a world to build on itself? Absolutely. The inciting event, the consequences from other in universe events all appealed to me. Season 2 appealed to me because it gave a new perspective on events in TNG.

BUT, being told this is the best ever is not fun. Its frustrating because the things that I genuinely find interesting are sidelined.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Are all the anti-nostalgia, anti-S3 Picard folks just DISCO fans who are butt-hurt because it got cancelled?

Asking for a friend.

No.
Have you met @Serveaux?

 

[Nerys Myk]

If they do Star Trek: Legacy I hope it's focused on actual legacies. The protégées,children and grandchildren of the ENT-VOY (or TOS-ENT if you like that arrangement ) characters. More of Pres. Anton Chekov, the LaForge sisters and the the like. Personal choice would be seeing Admiral/Ambassador/Minister/Whatever Saavik, especially if it ties in to the Romulan Refugees.

 

[HotRod]

Are all the anti-nostalgia, anti-S3 Picard folks just DISCO fans who are butt-hurt because it got cancelled?

Asking for a friend.

I'm mostly indifferent in regards to Discovery. It has some things I liked, somethings I disliked, and I'm generally happy it made it to 5 seasons. Not an easy thing in the world of streaming.

That outta the way; I'm not anti-nostalgia or anti-S3 Picard. I just think think a show has to be more then JUST nostalgia.

I asked awhile ago if Picard S3 could be enjoyed by someone who has never seen a minute of Trek before? I would say the answer to that is overwhelmingly "No".

It brought virtually nothing new to the table and absolutely wallowed in nostalgia. Too much of anything can be a bad thing.

I've also said that I'm mostly fine with it. Call it a "valentine to the fans".

Where I start to have problems is when I hear Lord Terry talk about his ideas for another series, which by his own account will be another trip down nostalgia lane. This is where I begin to worry. This is where I see the franchise getting stagnated. They've got a taste of big time success with this formula and now they are going to run it into the ground.

To myself, Star Trek is about exploring strange NEW worlds, New life and NEW civilizations, all that stuff. To make a another show that seems to forget all that and worry more about visiting places we've already been, betrays the very concept of Star Trek, in my opinion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, because I'm sure Lord Terry will get another shot at Trek, thanks to all the positive reviews for Picard, which again, I mostly enjoyed. I just hope it all doesn't go to his head.

One last thing that I will point out is the rather comical lengths certain fans will go to forgive Picard S3 and its various shortcomings for that they would have otherwise condemned Discovery. It's rather telling.

 

[trekfan_1]

I see both sides of the coin when it comes to the next series. Legacy is a popular idea. However if they conducted a poll in 1986 with these options:

New series on the next Enterprise . set in the same timline as Kirk, involving Trelane and Kirk's son and Scotty's enginwer nephew , an Andorian, Vulcan and a Tellerite.

v.s

A Star Trek series set 100 years in the future with a bald English actor playing a Frenchman with a Klingon onboard and no Vulcan characters.

Be honest people. Who would lead a Star Trek poll for the next Star Trek show?

Now having said that, doing a
Trek show directly branching off another current series (Discovery)is not exactly inspired either.

Ideally, jumping into to the future ( not necessarily as far as Discovery ) with a setting different than any previous Treks but STILL feels like Star Trek would be very difficult ....but ambitious. Starfleet Academy you can argue doess that, but it still branches off discovery. Thats like doing a new show set on Bajor about Bajoran religion or the Bajoran militia right after DS9 ended.

The thing is, I have been overall disappointed with the modern showrunners take on their "new" ideas. I don't trust them to pull it off. I have come to the point where I prefer to see "safe" Star Trek. Fall back to a formula that has a history of working involving characters we want to see . It's like going to a restaurant where you order the familiar - the same amazing meal every time. I think most people would prefer that over going to a restaurant that offers new 'exotic " meals that taste bad 90 percent of the time. Thats how I feel about Strange New Worlds and why I approve of it existing .

There been soo much content over the last 50 years. It's no shame to admit it is difficult to maintain the spirit of Star Trek AND also do something groundbreaking. It's no shame to return to a familiar formula. Westerns did exactly that and had a long run ( And
are even making a bit if a comeback of sorts.)

So bring on Legacy I say

 

[Imaus]

Are all the anti-nostalgia, anti-S3 Picard folks just DISCO fans who are butt-hurt because it got cancelled?

Asking for a friend.

Nope I've hated all post-Ent trek save TLD; for example.

The anti-nostalgia angle can also come from the agonizing throes of watching the 90s cast get put through this constant BS of a studio that flips off everything and now stains, at least, that whole era with their contrivances.Wee (spoiler ship spoiler action spoiler metasaving plot) for the last 15 years is not fun.

At this point just make a whole new reboot. Do a new timeline. Go to 2200 and just start something new.

 

[locborg]

At this point just make a whole new reboot. Do a new timeline. Go to 2200 and just start something new.

You can’t always invent a new timeline, only because previous ideas didn’t resonate according to expectations. Advancing a franchise with so many canonical constraints like Star Trek is a challenge, but as long as the program itself is artistically attractive and in sync with the zeitgeist, the show will become a success.

Picard season 3 was not only about memberberries, it was also sleek in execution, something which many fans missed in all the other NuTrek seasons.

When was the last time, this forum was so engaged in discussion about the possible revelations of a series? We (and many other social media sites) had long discussions about

- the real identity of Jack
- the villain behind melty face
- the origin of Vadic
- the appearance of the Enterprise
- etc

these discussions were exceptionally lively because the show provided a form of suspense, we haven’t seen in Star Trek for a very long time.

Excellent storytelling and cinematography will usually make viewers want to continue the show. It will also make them pay for streaming services. Mediocre content makes potential viewers turn to piracy or shift away from the franchise as a whole.

It is that simple…

 

[El Maestro]

I actually blame the way people interpret South Park and the whole memberberries thing. I think the way it's commonly understood is wrong. Their thesis was not that "nostalgia is bad," it was that reactionary movements use nostalgia as a Trojan horse to make people believe that the past was much better than the present and the outgroup is responsible for the difference, and they need to be made to pay for it. They abandoned the story line because reality progressed beyond satire. Despite some way-out-there interpretations of PIC S3, Trek is a not vehicle for reactionary politics and never was.

In any case, the "memberberries" concept is now commonly and mimetically used as a pejorative for anything that recalls the past. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Red Letter Media's recent video on S3's ep 8-10 do a good job explaining why the nostalgia was a good thing in this case.

 

[fireproof78]

Nostalgia is not bad. It's not good. It's how it's used.

And Season 3 being described as best ever.

 

[El Maestro]

Nostalgia is not bad. It's not good. It's how it's used.

And Season 3 being described as best ever.

But for people who fondly remember TNG, Picard, etc., is IS the best ever, because of how it ties a lot of threads together and gives a mostly very satisfying conclusion to those characters and stories. People are reacting this way because (especially compared to PIC S1 and 2 and the TNG movies) the plotting and characterization are pretty big improvement, and the nostalgia makes these resonate even more. The changeling + Borg evil team up with dire consequences can work serviceably with any cast of characters from the Trek franchise; that it was the TNG crew and JLP make it MORE impactful. The nostalgia helps because it adds a dimension to it and deepens the story, stakes, and the audiences connection to same.

You are not nostalgic for TNG. So of course you wouldn't think it's the best ever. Your opinions about TNG and PIC would appear to be in the minority of fans, which is no problem. At best, though, I think you can say "it's not the best ever for me." There's really no way to objectively measure it; all we can do is pay attention to trends and overall subjective reception to it. Your experience is different from what *appears* to be the typical/normative one. Which, again, is not a problem.

What about this season being pitched as the "best ever" is problematic for you, beyond the fact that you don't think so? What frustrates you? That we didn't see Rios, Jurati, Laris, etc.? I can understand being disappointed by their absence.

 

[fireproof78]

But for people who fondly remember TNG, Picard, etc., is IS the best ever, because of how it ties a lot of threads together and gives a mostly very satisfying conclusion to those characters and stories. People are reacting this way because (especially compared to PIC S1 and 2 and the TNG movies) the plotting and characterization are pretty big improvement, and the nostalgia makes these resonate even more. The changeling + Borg evil team up with dire consequences can work serviceably with any cast of characters from the Trek franchise; that it was the TNG crew and JLP make it MORE impactful. The nostalgia helps because it adds a dimension to it and deepens the story, stakes, and the audiences connection to same.

Yes, and I don't disagree with any of this. The nostalgia is OK as far as adding depth. However, it doesn't work because at a particular point it takes over the story completely.

I think you can say "it's not the best ever for me."

No kidding. That's what I am doing and being told to like it anyway.

What about this season being pitched as the "best ever" is problematic for you, beyond the fact that you don't think so? What frustrates you? That we didn't see Rios, Jurati, Laris, etc.? I can understand being disappointed by their absence.

What frustrates me is the following:

Spoiler: Picard Season 3 spoilers

We start with a good mystery and it goes in a limited direction. Once the "crew of the Enterprise" all come together that's the focus. It becomes all action and spectacle in a way that is not enjoyable. It's a perfectly serviceable story but it isn't "best ever."

Secondarily, and a bit more metatextuality is the fact that this being put on a pedestal is odd to me, because it does things that Season 1 and 2 did, both with the action and the explosions, as well as some interesting character beats. To me, this season is a culmination of multiple threads that all tie back to Season 1. But that's not recognized because the nostalgia overrides all. That's frustrating.

 

[James Cole]

Why do I disagree? Because Trek is a multi-decade spanning "history of the future" BUT it is also a story about characters. Referring to and including past characters/events/whatever grounds the audience in the vast universe, reminding us not just of the events that those characters were a part of but also the way we as an audience FELT about those characters and events. So, for me, nostalgia doesn't cheapen current events, it deepens our connection to them because we are witnessing and processing them with the entire backstory and set of feelings/experiences IN ADDITION to the feelings about what is currently happening. It can make for a more multilayered experience. The more nihilistic approach can lead to newness for the sake of newness, which can be hollow in franchise as deep as Trek, as well as lead to the trend of cynical deconstruction that can happen in lots of franchises (e.g., PIC S1 and S2, Superman, some of the SW sequel trilogy, etc.)

I very much agree. Reset buttons aside, Star Trek has built up decades of lore. Season 3 did a great job affirming that the past mattered, everything that was depicted in the past happened, that our investment in the characters mattered, and that the work of the people behind the scenes for over a decade mattered.

And unfortunately people that try and argue this are bullied for wanting a continuation and not a reboot.

Star Trek isn't just a format for a space show a la THE TWILIGHT ZONE or BLACK MIRROR. Continuity can add value and depth to a storyline, not serve as a straightjacket if a decent amount of care is taken.

I hope this makes at least some sense!

It does. Thanks for sticking your neck out and expanding it.

Picard season 3 was not only about memberberries, it was also sleek in execution, something which many fans missed in all the other NuTrek seasons.

It was far from perfect. But it has been the best Star Trek we've gotten since 2005. Character wise, "The Last Generation" serves as a better finale than "Endgame" or TATV.

these discussions were exceptionally lively because the show provided a form of suspense, we haven’t seen in Star Trek for a very long time.

I've never been this invested in when a streaming show would actually "drop". And people genuinely wanted to avoid spoilers.

But for people who fondly remember TNG, Picard, etc., is IS the best ever, because of how it ties a lot of threads together and gives a mostly very satisfying conclusion to those characters and stories. People are reacting this way because (especially compared to PIC S1 and 2 and the TNG movies) the plotting and characterization are pretty big improvement, and the nostalgia makes these resonate even more. The changeling + Borg evil team up with dire consequences can work serviceably with any cast of characters from the Trek franchise; that it was the TNG crew and JLP make it MORE impactful. The nostalgia helps because it adds a dimension to it and deepens the story, stakes, and the audiences connection to same.

It pays off decades of investment in characters, plus honors the work of the behind the scenes people instead of wanting to reinvent the wheel for the sake of doing their own spin on things.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I agree with fireproof78, season 3 was a conclusion of numerous plots that all tie back to Season 1 of PICARD.

 

[casey]

I try to talk about things I love like MASH, or Golden Girls, or The Ten Commandments, or Star Wars (the original film) or whatnot, and the discussions don't go for long.

I would love to talk endlessly about the Golden Girl's with you, for what it's worth.

 

[Uhura's Song]

The only reason it bothers me right now is that the current season is pitched as "best ever." And nostalgia is not the best thing ever to me.

Best ever is a big reach. TOS1 has that title by leaps & bounds for me. TNG 3-5 and DS9 4-6 are AWFUL strong. I think top 7 may be off limits.

PIC3 and SNW1 were awful good, too. TNG 6, DS9 3 & 7, and the best of VOY, ENT, and TOS2 also merit discussion.

 

[Omegaphallic]

Are all the anti-nostalgia, anti-S3 Picard folks just DISCO fans who are butt-hurt because it got cancelled?

Asking for a friend.

Its more ending then Cancelled, cancelled suggests the story gets cut off before having a preplanned and executed series finally and closure. Dark Matter was cancelled, Kill Joys merely ended for example.

Only ironically TOS & maybe TAS was cancelled, everything else was allowed to have a proper series finally in Star Trek.

I'm a moderate, I like Discovery, but its deeply flawed, so season 5 is a good time to end the series, on its own terms, but not the abruptness of a cancellation, that gives no closure and leaves piles of loose ends that never get tied up. Its the right way to treat Discovery fans, respectfully.

As to why some Discovery fans hate Picard Season 3, they see it as "Nazis" winning, and getting in the way of their great project. Even though Picard Season 3 was probably the most racial diverse season in Picard with 5 major Black actors in the cast (Levar & his daughter, the young lady who plays his other daughter, and Dorn, Raffi) all positive role models, no sereotypes, a minor Asian actor, a female Admiral, an interacial romance, and two women becoming the Captain and Commander of the Enterprise G, both bisexuals.

Tons of strong women in the show, well written strong women, not the kind you have to tell people are strong, you can just see it by their actions, but hey fans are still Nazis somehow .