^ There's a difference between TYPE and CLASS. A starship's class is simply the name of the first ship that had that configuration. The term 'Starship Class' implies a ship named USS Starship, which obviously makes no sense.
Constellation NCC-1017 Question
- Thread starter MapleJack
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Not really: "class" is a valid synonym for "type" or "category" in most contexts.
The Royal Navy is again particularly famous for using "class" and "type" interchangeably: its postwar combatants have all been officially identified by type numbers, and their name-based class identities are more or less informal. So for the current RN backbone vessel we have Type 23, commonly known as Duke Class, launched with HMS Norfolk and completely lacking a HMS Duke.
It would be trivially easy to argue that the dedication plaque lists the mission category of Kirk's ship as Starship Class and omits the class, type or group identity of the vessel. A Miranda from the same era would probably have a plaque saying Starship Class, too. But a Federation might have a plaque saying Dreadnought Class, and a Saladin or Larson might have one engraved with Destroyer Class. (Also, remember the ST3 exchange on "Scout Class"?)
Timo Saloniemi
The Royal Navy is again particularly famous for using "class" and "type" interchangeably: its postwar combatants have all been officially identified by type numbers, and their name-based class identities are more or less informal. So for the current RN backbone vessel we have Type 23, commonly known as Duke Class, launched with HMS Norfolk and completely lacking a HMS Duke.
It would be trivially easy to argue that the dedication plaque lists the mission category of Kirk's ship as Starship Class and omits the class, type or group identity of the vessel. A Miranda from the same era would probably have a plaque saying Starship Class, too. But a Federation might have a plaque saying Dreadnought Class, and a Saladin or Larson might have one engraved with Destroyer Class. (Also, remember the ST3 exchange on "Scout Class"?)
Timo Saloniemi
That makes the most sense given how "class" is used in TOS and TMP. If it were TNG flipped to TOS, then it could be spoken as: "Constitution class, starship (class/rate)" and "Saladin class, destroyer", etc.
I think it's possible that the there were so many Starship Class ships at Starbase Eleven because there wasn't a major war or operation at that time. Like our country before World War II, when our US Navy parked many of its battleships at Battleship Row at Pearl Harbor, Starfleet may have done the same for its top-of-the-line ships.
The TOS series provides the class and type for the USS Enterprise. She was a Starship Class star cruiser ("A Taste of Armageddon") or space cruiser ("The Enterprise Incident").
Looking at the series, a hundred years ago, starships were identified by a name without a name prefix. For example, the starships Archon and Horizon. Fifty years before, there was the starship USS Valiant, indicating that the name prefix was already established when the starship disappeared. Interestingly, this last starship was, also, identified as a star cruiser.
The issue I have with Mr. Okuda's use of registries for the TOS series is that (a.) he slavishly copied many of Greg Jein's notes and (b.) didn't pay close attention to the dialogue in the first series. He made the USS Carolina a Daedalus-class ship believing that the Klingons were using an older ship name for their distress call when we know this starship was active in Captain Kirk's time and confusing this ship with the freighter SS Dierdre, and making the Horizon a Daedalus-class starship. The Horizon landed on the Iotian home world. Could a Daedalus-class starship land on a planet? I don't see how.
As for other class designations, in the TMOST, there is the Destroyer Class ship that Captain Kirk commanded prior to commanding the Enterprise. We, also, hear references to an unnamed scout ship in "The Apple".
Starships, or Star Ships, were a unique brand of vessel. Throughout the series, characters speak of the uniqueness of these vessels, that they were commanded by especially trained and skilled male commanders, that they were limited in number, and that they were the front line ships for Starfleet. Captains, like James Kirk, earned their assignments by commanding lesser ships and proving their value. Starships, also, seemed to have the largest crew compliments in the fleet. An average starship had a crew compliment of over 400. The Farragut, when Kirk served aboard her, had this many crew when attacked by the dikornium cloud creature. (The Enterprise had half her number in the same time period - maybe she was working on a reduced crew number, thus explaining the weariness of the crew.) Later ships, the Intrepid and the four starships involved in the M-5 wargames all had crew compliments over 400.
For myself, personally, I can see the Carolina as a Constitution-class starship. She is identified with the name prefix U.S.S., a prefix that was clearly associated with Starship Class ships in that time period.
So, for myself, there were at least three time periods for starships:
A hundred years prior to Star Trek - the Archon and the Horizon
Fifty years prior to Star Trek - the USS Republic and the USS Valiant (I don't see how the Republic can be a Enterprise-type starship, she is a cadet vessel; she may even have been one of the Class J Starships - the Republic had an atomic pile (energy pile) which was protected by safeguards.)
Star Trek - the Enterprise and her sister ships (the Carolina, the Constellation, the Constitution, the Defiant, the Excalibur, the Farragut, the Hood, the Intrepid, the Lexington, the Potemkin, the Yorktown, and several other unnamed ships - these may include the Eagle, the Endeavour, the Essex (all mentioned in early drafts of scripts for TOS)). At least one or two of these ships were no longer in service by "Tomorrow is Yesterday". None of these ships were driven by atomic piles (energy piles).
For those interested, I did a quick check on the definition for atomic pile. This is a very old name for an early nuclear reactor. So, the Antares and the Republic and the unnamed Class J starship where Fleet Captain Pike had his accident were all powered by nuclear reactors. Later starships were driven by matter/anti-matter reactors. (For me, that settles the debate. The Republic is not the same as the Enterprise. The former is a much older, more primitive starship.)
The TOS series provides the class and type for the USS Enterprise. She was a Starship Class star cruiser ("A Taste of Armageddon") or space cruiser ("The Enterprise Incident").
Looking at the series, a hundred years ago, starships were identified by a name without a name prefix. For example, the starships Archon and Horizon. Fifty years before, there was the starship USS Valiant, indicating that the name prefix was already established when the starship disappeared. Interestingly, this last starship was, also, identified as a star cruiser.
The issue I have with Mr. Okuda's use of registries for the TOS series is that (a.) he slavishly copied many of Greg Jein's notes and (b.) didn't pay close attention to the dialogue in the first series. He made the USS Carolina a Daedalus-class ship believing that the Klingons were using an older ship name for their distress call when we know this starship was active in Captain Kirk's time and confusing this ship with the freighter SS Dierdre, and making the Horizon a Daedalus-class starship. The Horizon landed on the Iotian home world. Could a Daedalus-class starship land on a planet? I don't see how.
As for other class designations, in the TMOST, there is the Destroyer Class ship that Captain Kirk commanded prior to commanding the Enterprise. We, also, hear references to an unnamed scout ship in "The Apple".
Starships, or Star Ships, were a unique brand of vessel. Throughout the series, characters speak of the uniqueness of these vessels, that they were commanded by especially trained and skilled male commanders, that they were limited in number, and that they were the front line ships for Starfleet. Captains, like James Kirk, earned their assignments by commanding lesser ships and proving their value. Starships, also, seemed to have the largest crew compliments in the fleet. An average starship had a crew compliment of over 400. The Farragut, when Kirk served aboard her, had this many crew when attacked by the dikornium cloud creature. (The Enterprise had half her number in the same time period - maybe she was working on a reduced crew number, thus explaining the weariness of the crew.) Later ships, the Intrepid and the four starships involved in the M-5 wargames all had crew compliments over 400.
For myself, personally, I can see the Carolina as a Constitution-class starship. She is identified with the name prefix U.S.S., a prefix that was clearly associated with Starship Class ships in that time period.
So, for myself, there were at least three time periods for starships:
A hundred years prior to Star Trek - the Archon and the Horizon
Fifty years prior to Star Trek - the USS Republic and the USS Valiant (I don't see how the Republic can be a Enterprise-type starship, she is a cadet vessel; she may even have been one of the Class J Starships - the Republic had an atomic pile (energy pile) which was protected by safeguards.)
Star Trek - the Enterprise and her sister ships (the Carolina, the Constellation, the Constitution, the Defiant, the Excalibur, the Farragut, the Hood, the Intrepid, the Lexington, the Potemkin, the Yorktown, and several other unnamed ships - these may include the Eagle, the Endeavour, the Essex (all mentioned in early drafts of scripts for TOS)). At least one or two of these ships were no longer in service by "Tomorrow is Yesterday". None of these ships were driven by atomic piles (energy piles).
For those interested, I did a quick check on the definition for atomic pile. This is a very old name for an early nuclear reactor. So, the Antares and the Republic and the unnamed Class J starship where Fleet Captain Pike had his accident were all powered by nuclear reactors. Later starships were driven by matter/anti-matter reactors. (For me, that settles the debate. The Republic is not the same as the Enterprise. The former is a much older, more primitive starship.)
I could be wrong on this, but I don't think Pearl Harbor was because of a lack of war in the Pacific front. I think it's more that it was serving as a fleet in being to discourage Japanese naval action.
Pearl was our main base in the Pacific, and our warships were based there. Not being at war, they weren't out doing anything.
Since starships are all supposed to be out exploring, it's odd that so many of them are in port at one Starbase in one tiny corner of the vast Federation, rather than spread out over many bases all over the galaxy.
Since starships are all supposed to be out exploring, it's odd that so many of them are in port at one Starbase in one tiny corner of the vast Federation, rather than spread out over many bases all over the galaxy.
I've never assumed that chart of Stone's to mean listing nothing but ships identical to the Enterprise. There have to be other ships in Starfleet service and that chart was a tiny window into that aspect of the TOS universe. At best there might have been one or at the outside two other sister ships of the Enterprise there.
Or just maybe that chart lists ships of which not all of them are at Starbase 10.
Or just maybe that chart lists ships of which not all of them are at Starbase 10.
Unless Starbase 11 was the designated repair facility for Federation space vessels in this region of space. The base certainly has more than enough brass on hand (two commodores, and at least four captains) to make it seem like a major command and repair facility.
Note, though, that some of those brass had to be summoned to Starbase 11 for the court martial to proceed.
The nature of Federation starbases in TREK has never been clarified. Are they just stations for starships and the crews to stop off, get some R & R, and take care of supplies and repairs?
I read a fandom suggestion once that said Starbase 11 was probably named because it is located in Federation sector 011. If we accept this premise, for sake of argument, then perhaps Starbase 11 serves as a command and service/commerce hub for Sector 011 and surrounding areas. Maybe Starbase 11 is not just an installation, but a territory with Federation and civilian ships assigned to it. (There was a vaguely similar premise in the 1980 STAR TREK MAPS, though it had nothing to do with the base's numbering IIRC.)
I read a fandom suggestion once that said Starbase 11 was probably named because it is located in Federation sector 011. If we accept this premise, for sake of argument, then perhaps Starbase 11 serves as a command and service/commerce hub for Sector 011 and surrounding areas. Maybe Starbase 11 is not just an installation, but a territory with Federation and civilian ships assigned to it. (There was a vaguely similar premise in the 1980 STAR TREK MAPS, though it had nothing to do with the base's numbering IIRC.)
When the hell was it ever stated that the Horizon landed on Sigma Iotia II?
As for the term "Starship Class", it's probably less mind-numbing to figure, like others have asserted, that it's an overall classification that includes more than one named class. Much like how the Enterprise-D is both a Galaxy class starship and classified as an Explorer.
And, as has been pointed out previously, the number on the chart is 1831, not 1631.
As for the term "Starship Class", it's probably less mind-numbing to figure, like others have asserted, that it's an overall classification that includes more than one named class. Much like how the Enterprise-D is both a Galaxy class starship and classified as an Explorer.
And, as has been pointed out previously, the number on the chart is 1831, not 1631.
As for those officers, they were already at Starbase 11 before they were summoned to Starbase 11. There is a shot of them at a table when Captain Kirk enters the bar for the first time. One of the most blatant, and I think silly continuity errors in the original series. http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x20hd/courtmartialhd050.jpg (Lindstrom and Chandra at the table, Krasnovsky is walking in the background)
An interesting note - Captain Krasnovsky, a starship captain, wore a blue dress uniform. This could either mean he commanded a science ship, or his ship was assigned to Starfleet's Science Division with him in command. I wouldn't be surprised if some Constitution-class Starships were research vessels. We know that the Miranda-class Starships could function as research vessels, even though they were identified as medium cruisers. (Could someone please explain to me what the heck is a medium cruiser? It comes from the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.)
As for the issue regarding the Intrepid's registry, I am bemused by the attempts that Ex-Astris-Scientia and Memory Alpha go to explain the discrepancy between the model and the graph. They both state that their were two starships: a NCC-1631 and a NCC-1831. For me, the number on the chart has more credibility than what is labeled on a model and which is illegible by the way.
As for the base's name, could it be that the Starbase is named after the planet. In the bar, there is a sign which reads, M-11 Starbase Club. Just a thought.
My reference to Pearl Harbor is to the fact that the United States was officially at peace with the Axis Powers and was acting as a neutral nation at the time. According to a line from "The Menagerie", Starbase 11 is in a space sector free of troubles. In the early draft of "Court Martial", and available in the Blish adaption, there is a line that states this episode occurred approximately 18 months after Captain Kirk assumed command of the Enterprise. The episode "The Menagerie" occurred approximately two years after this event. (This is supported roughly by the stardates.) The troubles with the Klingons occurred a month or more later. So, my point, is that Starfleet was in a state of peace and could refit its top-of-the-line ships. I agree that it is insane to house most of one's capital ships at one base; however, military personnel have been known to lack common sense when it comes to such matters. (Let's park a battleship next to a tanker.
Let's park airplanes wing to wing.)
An interesting note - Captain Krasnovsky, a starship captain, wore a blue dress uniform. This could either mean he commanded a science ship, or his ship was assigned to Starfleet's Science Division with him in command. I wouldn't be surprised if some Constitution-class Starships were research vessels. We know that the Miranda-class Starships could function as research vessels, even though they were identified as medium cruisers. (Could someone please explain to me what the heck is a medium cruiser? It comes from the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.)
As for the issue regarding the Intrepid's registry, I am bemused by the attempts that Ex-Astris-Scientia and Memory Alpha go to explain the discrepancy between the model and the graph. They both state that their were two starships: a NCC-1631 and a NCC-1831. For me, the number on the chart has more credibility than what is labeled on a model and which is illegible by the way.
As for the base's name, could it be that the Starbase is named after the planet. In the bar, there is a sign which reads, M-11 Starbase Club. Just a thought.
My reference to Pearl Harbor is to the fact that the United States was officially at peace with the Axis Powers and was acting as a neutral nation at the time. According to a line from "The Menagerie", Starbase 11 is in a space sector free of troubles. In the early draft of "Court Martial", and available in the Blish adaption, there is a line that states this episode occurred approximately 18 months after Captain Kirk assumed command of the Enterprise. The episode "The Menagerie" occurred approximately two years after this event. (This is supported roughly by the stardates.) The troubles with the Klingons occurred a month or more later. So, my point, is that Starfleet was in a state of peace and could refit its top-of-the-line ships. I agree that it is insane to house most of one's capital ships at one base; however, military personnel have been known to lack common sense when it comes to such matters. (Let's park a battleship next to a tanker.
Let's park airplanes wing to wing.)That link gives me a 403 error. You might need to rehost it somewhere, that host must not allow hotlinks. I usually use imgur.com for that sort of stuff.
No such thing, in real world terms a "medium cruiser" is called... a "cruiser". The Miranda is also often referred to as a "heavy frigate", though, which is what I personally use.
Never.
We knew absolutely nothing about this ship - not its class, not its operating authority, not its method of destruction, not anything at all. Except its name.
Destroyed by Ion Storm, mentioned in the intro I believe.
All we know about the Horizon was its name. We don't know if it's a Starfleet or a Federation vessel be it a merchant, freighter, transport, scout or whatever. The same applies to the Archon. Hell, we don't know if Starfleet and/or the UFP even existed at the time (and please spare me the ENT retconning)---when the episode was written there were still a lot of things not known about the Trek universe. That said both the Horizon and Archon could have belonged to the Earth equivalent or possibly U.E.S.P.A.
Besides its name we also know the Horizon didn't have subspace radio.
Besides its name we also know the Horizon didn't have subspace radio.
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No, we don't even know that. The specific circumstances of the Horizon's destruction were never mentioned onscreen.
