Constellation NCC-1017 Question

[throwback]

Dialogue from "A Piece of the Action" -
KIRK: Boss? All right, Lieutenant, put him on. Oxmyx. This is Captain James T. Kirk of the starship Enterprise, representing the Federation of Planets.
OXMYX [OC]: Hello, Captain. You're from the same outfit as the Horizon?
KIRK: Yes. Unfortunately, the Horizon was lost with all hands shortly after leaving your planet. We only received her radio report last month.
OXMYX [OC]: Last month? What are you talking about? The Horizon left here a hundred years ago.
KIRK: Difficult to explain. We received a report a hundred years late because it was sent by conventional radio. Your system is on the outer reaches of the galaxy. They didn't have subspace communication in those days.
OXMYX [OC]: Toward the edge of what?
KIRK: I'll explain it in more detail when I see him. The ship won't land, but we'll transport several people down. Well, that's a little difficult for you to understand, too. I'll explain it in more detail when I see you. Where will be convenient?

The Horizon had conventional radio, had no transporters, and could land on a planetary surface.

As for the original timeline, from the series, I think that the Federation was founded within Captain Kirk's lifetime, and that in the series, I think we are seeing the transition to this new political reality. I based my speculation on this dialogue from "Whom Gods Destroy"-

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.
GARTH: Mister Spock, do you consider Captain Kirk and yourself brothers?
SPOCK: Captain Kirk speaks somewhat figuratively and with undue emotion. However, what he says is logical and I do, in fact, agree with it.

I wish that the later writers delved deeper into this war, and the battle at and subsequent peace mission to Axanar. I think this script writer was influenced by the events of World War II and the creation of the United Nations at the conclusion of that war.

Since this event is not mentioned in the new Trek film, I suppose this is another event that didn't happen in that alternate reality and Captain Garth of Izar never became a great warrior.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No, no, there was never any indication that the Horizon could land. None whatsoever.

 

[Wingsley]

While the character dialogue in "Whom Gods Destroy" strongly suggested the (relatively) recent founding of the Federation after the Battle of Axanar. It was by no means conclusive. If anything, it could just as easily be argued, based on that dialogue, that the Federation already existed, was on the brink of collapse, and the outcome of whatever happened at Axanar persuaded the member-worlds of the Federation to redouble their commitment to one another.

The dialogue quoted from "A Piece of the Action" is also inconclusive. Does it expressly say there was no subspace radio 100 years before TOS? If so, this would contradict "Balance of Terror", in which Spock recounted the history of the Earth-Romulan Conflict was negotiated by subspace radio. It could be argued that the technology existed, but either it had limited range in deep space (meaning the Horizon did without it on the implied extended leg of its voyage) or that the technology was still in its infancy then, perhaps prone to failure.

One thing is interesting to note: both Horizon and Archon are identified by Kirk and/or Spock as "starships", and Kirk's dialogue with Bella at least makes it clear that the Horizon was indeed a Federation vessel. I have my doubts that Kirk or Spock would refer to a non-Starfleet vessel as a "starship". Look at how Spock announced the S.S. Beagle in "Bread and Circuses"; makes it clear that the Beagle was non-Starfleet.

 

[Warped9]

We only know the Horizon didn't have subspace radio, not that subspace radio didn't yet exist as evidenced by Spock in "Balance Of Terror."

 

[TIN_MAN]

Perhaps Kirk's reference to "the ship won't land" is in regards to the shuttlecraft the Horizon crew used? Especially considering its juxtaposition with the transporter reference?

 

[blssdwlf]

The dialogue quoted from "A Piece of the Action" is also inconclusive. Does it expressly say there was no subspace radio 100 years before TOS? If so, this would contradict "Balance of Terror", in which Spock recounted the history of the Earth-Romulan Conflict was negotiated by subspace radio. It could be argued that the technology existed, but either it had limited range in deep space (meaning the Horizon did without it on the implied extended leg of its voyage) or that the technology was still in its infancy then, perhaps prone to failure.

Or that the Horizon had already left to the edge of the galaxy before a new fangled subspace radio could be installed... I wonder who or what 100 light years away eventually received the Horizon's message to relay to the Enterprise or was it the Enterprise herself just cruising through...

Also, regarding Starbase 11, aren't there lots of large cranes in the background shots in the distance? Could they be for landed starships or building new structures...?

 

[throwback]

In the 1870's, the first telegraph line was established between Europe and America. In 1907, the first ship-to-shore transmission occurred.

I bring this up for I think a similar situation may be applied to subspace radio. We know from "Balance of Terror" that a hundred years prior to TOS that subspace radio existed. We know from "A Piece of Action" that hundred years prior to TOS that starships weren't equipped with subspace radio.

So, I am thinking that the technology for subspace radio hadn't been miniaturized for ship use, and the equipment for this radio was housed in facilities set up on planets, and maybe large space stations. Decades later, with further developments, ships were equipped with this form of radio.

If I take what is said in "Balance of Terror" and "A Piece of the Action" and other episodes, I am thinking the Archon and the Horizon may have been veterans of the Earth-Romulan war. Both ships had atomic weapons, had no transporters, had no subspace radio, were powered by nuclear reactors (atomic piles), and were smaller than the Enterprise-type starships. These two ships were the top-of-the-line vessels in their day, and were in service to UESPA.

Every reference to a ship prior to twenty years and greater TOS was identified as an Earth ship. The USS Valiant was called an Earth ship, and she was lost fifty years prior to TOS. The rescue ships to Tarsus IV were identified as Earth ships, and this was twenty years prior to TOS. Fifteen years or less, James T. Kirk was a cadet on the Axanar Peace Mission. By the end of TOS, we hear more references to the Federation. (I am not ignorant of the reasons for this in the real world; however, I am concentrating more on what is in the shows.)

Now, as for the registry of the Constellation, I am thinking she may have been built before the war involving Axanar. In this war, a great many ships were built, and I think why this is why the Enterprise has a much higher registry. We don't know when this latter ship was commissioned, only that she was active at least thirteen years prior to "The Menagerie".

I don't go for complicated explanations - the Constellation is of an older class, than got changed to Enterprise-type is complete bollocks to me.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

All we know about the Horizon was its name. We don't know if it's a Starfleet or a Federation vessel be it a merchant, freighter, transport, scout or whatever. The same applies to the Archon. Hell, we don't know if Starfleet and/or the UFP even existed at the time (and please spare me the ENT retconning)---when the episode was written there were still a lot of things not known about the Trek universe. That said both the Horizon and Archon could have belonged to the Earth equivalent or possibly U.E.S.P.A.

Besides its name we also know the Horizon didn't have subspace radio.

Personally, I think that Berman et-al missed an amazing opportunity... by not making Archer's ship the Horizon (and calling the series "Horizon" as well).

 

[Albertese]

...


Every reference to a ship prior to twenty years and greater TOS was identified as an Earth ship. The USS Valiant was called an Earth ship, and she was lost fifty years prior to TOS. The rescue ships to Tarsus IV were identified as Earth ships, and this was twenty years prior to TOS. Fifteen years or less, James T. Kirk was a cadet on the Axanar Peace Mission. By the end of TOS, we hear more references to the Federation. (I am not ignorant of the reasons for this in the real world; however, I am concentrating more on what is in the shows.)


...

My current operational theory here is that the Federation (at least through the TOS era) operated Starfleet as several distinct fleets managed under different worlds jurisdictions. UESPA and other references to "Earth ships" or "Earth bases/colonies" are because these are managed by authorities based on Earth, while other worlds would maintain other facilities.

As to goofy registries, this thread has got me to wondering, what if the number isn't just a sequentially assign serial number but actually has complex internal meaning. Maybe the first digit is what sort of ship it is ("1" being a cruiser), the second digit is what yard built the ship ("7" being San Fransisco), and the next two digits are something else, maybe Enterprise was the first cruiser after the prototype. So 1701. 1017 might have been the seventeenth cruiser built at the Norfolk orbital yards and 1371 was the seventy-first cruiser built at the (now closed) Minsk orbital yards.

Something similar could be for the prefixes. The first letter may be where it's registered, perhaps "N" is reserved for any ship publicly owned and operated by Starfleet. Perhaps the second letter in the code is if it's a warp speed capable ship or just a sub-light ship, "C" for warp drive and "S" for sublight. The next position could be for whatever letter code is appropriate for the
specific ship. Maybe a "C" in that place means it's armed and combat capable? That would explain all the "NCC" business. I thought it a waste of perfectly good paint/space-decals to keep on marking "NCC" if it means "navigational contact code" or "naval construction contract" if it literally means the same thing on every ship! Why bother painting it at all!?!? But if it's really a code that means "warp-driven combat capable Starfleet operated vessel" then it makes sense to include on paper every time.

--Alex

(P.S. I know there are various TNG other registry prefixes, like NAR and YTN or something like that, I'm really just thinking about TOS era here and assuming the system would have grown more elaborate and less compressible with the passing years, much as most such governmental systems tend to do.)

 

[Warped9]

In the 1870's, the first telegraph line was established between Europe and America. In 1907, the first ship-to-shore transmission occurred.

I bring this up for I think a similar situation may be applied to subspace radio. We know from "Balance of Terror" that a hundred years prior to TOS that subspace radio existed. We know from "A Piece of Action" that hundred years prior to TOS that starships weren't equipped with subspace radio.

So, I am thinking that the technology for subspace radio hadn't been miniaturized for ship use, and the equipment for this radio was housed in facilities set up on planets, and maybe large space stations. Decades later, with further developments, ships were equipped with this form of radio.

If I take what is said in "Balance of Terror" and "A Piece of the Action" and other episodes, I am thinking the Archon and the Horizon may have been veterans of the Earth-Romulan war. Both ships had atomic weapons, had no transporters, had no subspace radio, were powered by nuclear reactors (atomic piles), and were smaller than the Enterprise-type starships. These two ships were the top-of-the-line vessels in their day, and were in service to UESPA.

Every reference to a ship prior to twenty years and greater TOS was identified as an Earth ship. The USS Valiant was called an Earth ship, and she was lost fifty years prior to TOS. The rescue ships to Tarsus IV were identified as Earth ships, and this was twenty years prior to TOS. Fifteen years or less, James T. Kirk was a cadet on the Axanar Peace Mission. By the end of TOS, we hear more references to the Federation. (I am not ignorant of the reasons for this in the real world; however, I am concentrating more on what is in the shows.)

It could simply be that the Horizon didn't yet have subspace radio as well as some older ships, not necessarily all ships of the era. The same happened with the wireless a century ago. At the time some ships had it and others didn't.

 

[BK613]

It should be noted that someone in Kirk's time appears to be using radio as well, since someone heard the Horizon's report.
--------
And, also, that the Horizon had a range of at least 100 light years...

 

[Warped9]

It should be noted that someone in Kirk's time appears to be using radio as well, since someone heard the Horizon's report.
--------
And, also, that the Horizon had a range of at least 100 light years...

I think we can speculate that part of the Starfleet's and Federation science's function would be to scan for all manner of electromagnetic signals on the chance of eavesdropping upon extraterrestrial signals that could lead to eventual study and even contact with another civilization. In that context the Horizon's signal could easily have been detected.

 

[Timo]

Actually, it's perfectly possible in light of later Trek that the Horizon not only had a subspace radio set onboard, but also used it for sending the report that Starfleet received.

We received a report a hundred years late because it was sent by conventional radio. Your system is on the outer reaches of the galaxy. These outer reaches didn't have subspace communication in those days.

Above, I have replaced "they" with the thing it seems to be referring to in the context, instead of assuming that it refers to things like mankind or the Federation or the Merchant Marine or whatever.

ENT suggests that even the humblest vessels in the mid-22nd century already had a subspace transceiver aboard. But this need not be in contradiction with TOS at all. The TNG Tech Manual cleverly suggests that the subspace radio has a finite range for FTL transmission, and that once the signal exceeds that range, it has weakened so much that it becomes STL. If we assume the range of the set aboard the Horizon is twenty lightyears, then she can be in realtime contact with Earth until she loiters 20 ly beyond the outermost communications relay buoy. When she's 21 ly away, her messages will be delayed by a year; when she's 100 ly away, the delay will be 80 years.

If Sigma Iotia is something like 100-120 ly from the outer buoys of the 2160s commnet, then the Horizon would suffer from a commlag no matter what - and might choose not to utilize the nearly useless subspace set at all for her reports. We need not assume that this ship for some reason lacked subspace comms tech, then, when all other evidence (including some TOS episodes) indicates such tech was quite available in the mid-22nd century already.

Regarding transporters, these could have been onboard and in use as well. Kirk is jumping to baseless conclusions in thinking that Okmyx doesn't understand the technology. After all, his men readily understand that "dey can do nuthin' till dey through sparklin'"... This without 23rd century exposure to the technology.

Remember that the Iotians are just playing the 1920s game. In order to play it successfully, they probably need at least 22nd century technology, and perhaps something even more advanced than that. The industrial basis for the 1920s charade could not have come from mere blueprints of radio sets and other such individual pieces of technology left by the Horizon folks; Iotia may have possessed it well in advance, and the Horizon just happened to catch them when they were playing some earlier era, and jumped to conclusions - just like Kirk does.

So essentially, nothing at all is established about the Horizon and her capabilities, at least not in the limiting sense. She would still meet all the known criteria if she were a Constitution or perhaps Intrepid class starship!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

Actually, it's perfectly possible in light of later Trek that the Horizon not only had a subspace radio set onboard, but also used it for sending the report that Starfleet received.

We received a report a hundred years late because it was sent by conventional radio. Your system is on the outer reaches of the galaxy. These outer reaches didn't have subspace communication in those days.

Above, I have replaced "they" with the thing it seems to be referring to in the context, instead of assuming that it refers to things like mankind or the Federation or the Merchant Marine or whatever.

ENT suggests that even the humblest vessels in the mid-22nd century already had a subspace transceiver aboard. But this need not be in contradiction with TOS at all. The TNG Tech Manual cleverly suggests that the subspace radio has a finite range for FTL transmission, and that once the signal exceeds that range, it has weakened so much that it becomes STL. If we assume the range of the set aboard the Horizon is twenty lightyears, then she can be in realtime contact with Earth until she loiters 20 ly beyond the outermost communications relay buoy. When she's 21 ly away, her messages will be delayed by a year; when she's 100 ly away, the delay will be 80 years.

If Sigma Iotia is something like 100-120 ly from the outer buoys of the 2160s commnet, then the Horizon would suffer from a commlag no matter what - and might choose not to utilize the nearly useless subspace set at all for her reports. We need not assume that this ship for some reason lacked subspace comms tech, then, when all other evidence (including some TOS episodes) indicates such tech was quite available in the mid-22nd century already.

Regarding transporters, these could have been onboard and in use as well. Kirk is jumping to baseless conclusions in thinking that Okmyx doesn't understand the technology. After all, his men readily understand that "dey can do nuthin' till dey through sparklin'"... This without 23rd century exposure to the technology.

Remember that the Iotians are just playing the 1920s game. In order to play it successfully, they probably need at least 22nd century technology, and perhaps something even more advanced than that. The industrial basis for the 1920s charade could not have come from mere blueprints of radio sets and other such individual pieces of technology left by the Horizon folks; Iotia may have possessed it well in advance, and the Horizon just happened to catch them when they were playing some earlier era, and jumped to conclusions - just like Kirk does.

So essentially, nothing at all is established about the Horizon and her capabilities, at least not in the limiting sense. She would still meet all the known criteria if she were a Constitution or perhaps Intrepid class starship!

Timo Saloniemi

???

...whatever.

 

[blssdwlf]

The TNG Tech Manual cleverly suggests that the subspace radio has a finite range for FTL transmission, and that once the signal exceeds that range, it has weakened so much that it becomes STL. If we assume the range of the set aboard the Horizon is twenty lightyears, then she can be in realtime contact with Earth until she loiters 20 ly beyond the outermost communications relay buoy. When she's 21 ly away, her messages will be delayed by a year; when she's 100 ly away, the delay will be 80 years.

However when the E-D is thrown billions of light years away in "Where No One Has Gone Before", Data does not mention nor factor into his calculations for when Starfleet would receive their subspace message...

Although your suggestion of "they" being the folks in the outer reaches (or frontier) didn't have the latest technology at the time (being subspace radio) makes the most sense.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I do like the subspace com. net Idea, and that it was the lack of relay and/or booster stations that was the culprit here. It seems the best way to fudge everything into agreement (mostly).

 

[David cgc]

In the Enterprise Post-Finale novels, the Horizon's lightspeed signal is explained as being because the subspace transceiver had glitched, and the communications computer automatically defaulted to the next transmitter down the line to send the report. The crew commented that that was worse than useless unless they were right on top of the signal's destination, but they suffered an unfortunate incident before they finished fixing the subspace radio.

 

[Albertese]

...


Regarding transporters, these could have been onboard and in use as well. Kirk is jumping to baseless conclusions in thinking that Okmyx doesn't understand the technology. After all, his men readily understand that "dey can do nuthin' till dey through sparklin'"... This without 23rd century exposure to the technology.


...


Timo Saloniemi

They saw them materialize next to the yellow fireplug.

--Alex

 

[throwback]

When I wrote the last post, I was writing it with what was available in the original series. I feel that was shown in ENT is so removed from what was established in TOS that this former series is set in an entirely different universe (an alternate reality, if you like.)

I have reviewed what I have said about the Horizon's landing capabilities. I think as one poster said that shuttles were used may be far more likely. The Archon was pulled from orbit by Landru. So how did the personnel visit the planet? They came down in shuttles.

 

[Vance]

I have reviewed what I have said about the Horizon's landing capabilities. I think as one poster said that shuttles were used may be far more likely. The Archon was pulled from orbit by Landru. So how did the personnel visit the planet? They came down in shuttles.

When Landru was pulling her down, the crew of the Archon just jumped out and timed it just right... :P

Actually, there's no reason to think that transporters weren't in some limited use by the time of the Horizon and Archon (even ignoring ENT). In the latter case, though, the crew may have evacuated in an even more basic way - escape pods, once Landru launched his assault.