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Constellation NCC-1017 Question

The TNG Tech Manual cleverly suggests that the subspace radio has a finite range for FTL transmission, and that once the signal exceeds that range, it has weakened so much that it becomes STL.
I read this yesterday Timo, and something stuck in my head.

If the subspace signal carrier whatever lost enough energy so that it could no long travel faster than light (FTL) and therefor drops to the speed of light (SOL), okay I can buy that.

How exactly does the signal then travel slower than light (STL)?

:)
 
How exactly does the signal then travel slower than light (STL)?

:)

Probably the same reason we see *phaser beams* do that. Simple laziness on the part of the EFX team.

Even in TOS, the beam always takes a visible amount of time to reach its target. And since beams are made of light... :p
 
Even in TOS, the beam always takes a visible amount of time to reach its target. And since beams are made of light... :p
Well a lightning bolt "only" travels at about 39 miles a second, far less than light speed So I've always figured maybe a hand phasers beam was even slower than that. Around the speed of a bullet.

:)
 
Not sure why subspace signals would lose strength, as I believe it was shown that subspace relays/repeaters are scattered all throughout the Federation to avoid that very problem. I think they even had a scene in Enterprise of that or some other ship laying them out.
 
Not sure why subspace signals would lose strength, as I believe it was shown that subspace relays/repeaters are scattered all throughout the Federation to avoid that very problem. I think they even had a scene in Enterprise of that or some other ship laying them out.

I thought TNG shows them as well, and Epsilon IX apparently exists to serve that purpose as far back as TMP.

But the signals could easily lose strength in the 'lost' era between ENT and "The Cage" if there just haven't been any tenders out there to deploy subspace booster/transceivers and set up the network yet. They simply lose their SPADIS effect due to diffusion and then turn into simple radio, and then just diffuse out like everything else does.
 
How exactly does the signal then travel slower than light (STL)?

:)

Probably the same reason we see *phaser beams* do that. Simple laziness on the part of the EFX team.

Even in TOS, the beam always takes a visible amount of time to reach its target. And since beams are made of light... :p
Who said that phasers are lasers?

I've always assumed that phasers are "composite" weapons... perhaps with a laser "core" but with some form of particle beam that rides that to the target.

That explains the "splash" effect you get, as well as the slower-than-light movement of the (visible) portion of the beam, AND the fact that the beams are visible in space. No laser acts that way, but particle beams do.

With TNG, they even gave the mystical magic particles a name... "rapid nadions." Which, of course, is just another way of saying "squiggly animation" but it sounds cooler... but still, we're talking about a particle, not a JUST an energy frequency.

My assumption, re: phasers, is that they are basically energy-based harmonic oscillators. The beam isn't necessarily all that powerful, even... they just cause the molecules in whatever they target to oscillate at some forced frequency... perhaps the "natural frequency" of the strong atomic force which bonds atoms together... or perhaps at the "natural frequency" of some common intermediate neurotransmitter?

It's basically a "directed tuning fork" in that sense... pulsing the energy output of the device in such a way as to break down bonds or so forth. That's why things disintegrate without everything nearby being burned to cinders... you can't do that with "brute force heat," after all, can you?
 
...

They simply lose their SPADIS effect due to diffusion and then turn into simple radio, and then just diffuse out like everything else does.

What's a "SPADIS effect?" I've never heard of that before and I'm intrigued...

--Alex
 
SPADIS = "Spatial Distortion". Basically subspace radio must consist of a radio-wave surrounded by a micro-burst warp field, similar to how phasers have to operate, but with a much lesser power requirement. Eventually the energy to sustain this warp field must dissipate unless it's renewed by something - like the communications arrays, or another ship.
 
Sternbach and Okuda were really clever in inventing the "signal drops from FTL to lightspeed at set distance" thing, as it explains every instance of commlag in Star Trek just fine, as long as we choose the placement of the nearest booster relay right.

What it doesn't explain, as pointed out above, is the surprising lack of delay at the very long distances of "Where No One Has Gone Before". Less than a century for a million-lightyear call? But the inability to communicate FTL across such distances is back in VOY, and in fact seems to hold true for every other piece of Trek besides "WNOHGB". So we might do well to note that the evidence from that one episode is far from unambiguous.

LaForge: "Message on this has been transmitted to Starfleet, Sir."
Data: "Which, traveling subspace, they should receive in fifty-one years, ten months, nine weeks, sixteen days-"
Picard: "Mister Data!"
Apparently, everybody thinks it's realistic to send a message, as they indeed proceed with sending it. But Data is the only one who seems to think it would reach home in mere 51 years; nobody agrees with him there. And Data appears to be having some internal disagreement on the issue as well: first he says 51 years, then 10 months, then 9 weeks, then 16 days. But it makes no sense to say that the message will travel for 51 yrs + 10 months + 9 weeks + 16 days, because 9 weeks is more than a month and 16 days is more than a week! Thus, grammatically Data is offering at least three and possibly four different estimates for the delay - all of them in the conditional case of "should".

It would be pretty simple to say, then, that Data's conditional is never gonna materialize. If the message traveled in subspace, then it might arrive after one of the three or four suggested time intervals, depending on other parameters Data is not allowed to dwell upon (possibly because Picard thinks they will just remind everybody how hopeless their situation is). But the message probably will not travel in subspace, and will only reach Starfleet after millions of years, and may be lost in the background noise anyway. What LaForge sent was not a call for help, but a self-obituary.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Apparently, everybody thinks it's realistic to send a message, as they indeed proceed with sending it. But Data is the only one who seems to think it would reach home in mere 51 years; nobody agrees with him there.

Nobody disagrees with him either.

And Data appears to be having some internal disagreement on the issue as well: first he says 51 years, then 10 months, then 9 weeks, then 16 days. But it makes no sense to say that the message will travel for 51 yrs + 10 months + 9 weeks + 16 days, because 9 weeks is more than a month and 16 days is more than a week! Thus, grammatically Data is offering at least three and possibly four different estimates for the delay - all of them in the conditional case of "should".

Sure, regardless of which 5 options you pick, 51 years, 10 months, 9 weeks, 16 days or the total of all 4 the total time is still quicker than millions of years.
 
Has anyone considered the possibility that the E-D has a better subspace radio system than Kirk's ship? Or that there have been some advances in the intervening century?
 
The TNG TM is ambiguous on whether the 22 ly limit on subspace transmissions is the pseudophysical range of all such transmissions regardless of hardware; the state of the art achievable by the most modern 24th century hardware; or the range of the particular transmitter aboard Galaxy class ships, with other equally modern but smaller and weaker ships possessing a shorter-ranged device. Personally, I'd prefer the last option, as it gives us the greatest dramatic flexibility.

This would also mean that Kirk's set might have less range than Picards - although perhaps not by much, as Archer's even earlier set is capable of rather respectable range already, even in the episodes preceding the deployment of Echo 2 in "Silent Enemy". (Unless this early range is explained by the unseen deployment of Echo 1 and the preceding use of Vulcan relays.)

To be sure, the TNG TM is also ambiguous on whether the signal will even be audible after degrading to lightspeed, or mere noise. But things work out better if it does remain audible...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Nobody disagrees with him either.

Well, Picard shouts him down... We can only speculate on the reason. :devil:

Sure, regardless of which 5 options you pick, 51 years, 10 months, 9 weeks, 16 days or the total of all 4 the total time is still quicker than millions of years.

Quite so. But if there are multiple correct answers, then apparently the question has relevant parameters that we're not aware of. None of them might actually apply in their current predicament, and Data's rant might be of academic value only.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Nobody disagrees with him either.
Well, Picard shouts him down... We can only speculate on the reason. :devil:

We can speculate that it has nothing to do with being inaccurate :evil:

Sure, regardless of which 5 options you pick, 51 years, 10 months, 9 weeks, 16 days or the total of all 4 the total time is still quicker than millions of years.
Quite so. But if there are multiple correct answers, then apparently the question has relevant parameters that we're not aware of. None of them might actually apply in their current predicament, and Data's rant might be of academic value only.

If Data was Hicks from Aliens ranting, you'd have a point (maybe). But Data was merely stating information with parameters known to the characters and it seemed relevant enough for Picard to shut him up :)
 
Subspace fields have been shown to be affected by gravity so it seems reasonable that subspace comms in a galactic disk maybe subject to more "interference" than than in the intergalactic void.
Akin to using WiFi inside a building with lots of walls. :)
 
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