Christine Chapel and Anne Nored

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Two women with very different responses to finding out their former love re-discovered was not actually who he claimed to be. For good reason, however. Korby was mad, whereas the Vendorian Winston had a change of heart and helped the Enterprise fend off the Romulans, plus he had cared for a dying Winston, which may have endeared Anne to him. But still...isn't it a bit weird to carry on where you left off with someone who can look like your dead ex?

If "The Survivor" had been a full length episode (and more mindful of past continuity) Christine Chapel should have gotten a bigger part in the episode, sympathizing with Anne and thinking about her own experiences.

 

[Timo]

Two women with very different responses to finding out their former love re-discovered was not actually who he claimed to be. For good reason, however. Korby was mad

Was he really any different before and after the "machination"? Chapel appeared to have fallen in love with a man who liked to spend significant portions of his life with his head buried in distant ruins, hunting for the greater good of mankind. None of that had changed. At most, Korby just found what he was looking for. And it's difficult to believe he wouldn't have killed for it before his transformation.

wereas the Vendorian Winston had a change of heart and helped the Enterprise fend off the Romulans, plus he had cared for a dying Winston, which may have endeared Anne to him. But still...isn't it a bit weird to carry on where you left off with someone who can look like your dead ex?

Were that to become possible, it no doubt would soon become the new normal. I mean, why would anybody opt for anything else?

If "The Survivor" had been a full length episode (and more mindful of past continuity) Christine Chapel should have gotten a bigger part in the episode, sympathizing with Anne and thinking about her own experiences.

Certainly the chase for the shapeshifter couldn't have dragged on much longer without becoming tedious. But at full length (be it 41 or 60 min), the fact that Nored was Chapel would have become a bit too obvious. And not just in terms of the visuals...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Chapel seemed to think he was different, essentially not him. "Don't you see, Roger? Everything you've done has proved it isn't you."

Were that to become possible, it no doubt would soon become the new normal. I mean, why would anybody opt for anything else?

Because it's weird? Creepy? And if you believe people were unique and had a soul...I could see Anne and the Vendorian becoming friends, communing over their mutual care for him. Really, if he can choose any form or any combination of features, how about just looking sort of like him, but with different color hair or slightly different facial construction? Enough so Anne can't live in denial, pretending it's him again.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Because it's weird? Creepy? And if you believe people were unique and had a soul...I could see Anne and the Vendorian becoming friends, communing over their mutual care for him.

Creepy--and disrespectful to the memory of the deceased person. It would be as psychologically unstable as a man trying to ask a new girlfriend to dress, speak and behave like a dead ex--in other words, not letting go and accepting that the dead ex cannot be restored to the physical world.

Christine was correct in realizing that not only was Roger not the man she knew, but would not trash the memory of a once-living man by loving for a talking doll.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

But at full length (be it 41 or 60 min), the fact that Nored was Chapel would have become a bit too obvious. And not just in terms of the visuals..

With the exception that one was Winston's lookalike (for now) rescuer, the other was Korby's amoral bot twin.

 

[alensatemybuick1]

Creepy--and disrespectful to the memory of the deceased person. It would be as psychologically unstable as a man trying to ask a new girlfriend to dress, speak and behave like a dead ex--in other words, not letting go and accepting that the dead ex cannot be restored to the physical world.

Shades of Alfred Hitchcock;s Vertigo...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Two women with very different responses to finding out their former love re-discovered was not actually who he claimed to be. For good reason, however. Korby was mad, whereas the Vendorian Winston had a change of heart and helped the Enterprise fend off the Romulans, plus he had cared for a dying Winston, which may have endeared Anne to him. But still...isn't it a bit weird to carry on where you left off with someone who can look like your dead ex?

If "The Survivor" had been a full length episode (and more mindful of past continuity) Christine Chapel should have gotten a bigger part in the episode, sympathizing with Anne and thinking about her own experiences.

Totally.

Chapel seemed to think he was different, essentially not him. "Don't you see, Roger? Everything you've done has proved it isn't you."

Yep. Totally.

 

[Greg Cox]

Shades of Alfred Hitchcock;s Vertigo...

Yep.

We might also draw a comparison with Dr. Crater in "The Man Trap," who replaced his dead wife with the creature who killed her!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Shades of Alfred Hitchcock;s Vertigo...

Totally.

Yep.

We might also draw a comparison with Dr. Crater in "The Man Trap," who replaced his dead wife with the creature who killed her!

Yep. Totally.

 

[Greg Cox]

Without getting too spoilery, BATES MOTEL evoked VERTIGO this last season.

Helpful tip: When Norman Bates asks you to dress more like his mother, run the other way . . . .

EDIT: It just occurs on me that Roger Korby and Norman Bates were both invented by the same writer: Robert Bloch.

Making the Hitchcock comparisons even more OT than I first realized.

 

[diankra]

Creepy--and disrespectful to the memory of the deceased person. It would be as psychologically unstable as a man trying to ask a new girlfriend to dress, speak and behave like a dead ex--in other words, not letting go and accepting that the dead ex cannot be restored to the physical world.

True, but even now it's hardly unknown for people to marry the sibling of a dead spouse, and it works out as often as it goes wrong (it was far more common obviously in the days when marriages were more dynastic than romantic).

 

[FormerLurker]

Helpful tip: When Norman Bates asks you to dress more like his mother, run the other way . . .

If Norman Bates asks me to dress like his mother, I'm going to hit him first, to make sure he doesn't chase me.

 

[Christopher]

Because it's weird? Creepy? And if you believe people were unique and had a soul...I could see Anne and the Vendorian becoming friends, communing over their mutual care for him. Really, if he can choose any form or any combination of features, how about just looking sort of like him, but with different color hair or slightly different facial construction? Enough so Anne can't live in denial, pretending it's him again.

I'm inclined to think it's not so much denial as kinkiness. Remember, not only can he shapeshift into any conceivable form, but his natural form has tentacles...

 

[Timo]

"Creepy" generally wears off pretty soon. Stalking people used to be bad, nowadays it's what everybody does on the internet for innocent fun or professional edge or just plain because it's expected.

And staring at the likenesses of dead people who mattered to you... Well, since the invention of photography, there has been no going back, but folks really were doing that long before they invented writing already. If their sculptors and painters weren't up to the job, they propped the actual corpses on a shelf to ogle.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

True, but even now it's hardly unknown for people to marry the sibling of a dead spouse, and it works out as often as it goes wrong (it was far more common obviously in the days when marriages were more dynastic than romantic).

Even an identical twin sibling isn't as bad - there are subtle differences if you look. And you know that this is who they are - they're not pretending to be the dead guy, however good the motive.

"Creepy" generally wears off pretty soon. Stalking people used to be bad, nowadays it's what everybody does on the internet for innocent fun or professional edge or just plain because it's expected.

Some people make it easy, or at least make it possible to some extent. They recognize that there are people they want to share with - it's like writing a letter to thirty people. You still didn't know for certain that nobody would share it with someone you didn't want to read it.

And staring at the likenesses of dead people who mattered to you... Well, since the invention of photography, there has been no going back, but folks really were doing that long before they invented writing already. If their sculptors and painters weren't up to the job, they propped the actual corpses on a shelf to ogle.

Big difference between having images of them in life as opposed to corpse photos/bodies on shelves. For some people, I understand it might be the only photo they had of them, though, being too poor to have one taken in life (Victorian days).

 

[Markonian]

We slap the label "creepy" too easily onto things.

Would you begrudge Sisko if he kept mirror!Jennifer?

 

[Christopher]

Would you begrudge Sisko if he kept mirror!Jennifer?

If he thought of it in those terms, that she was just a possession to be "kept," then yes, I certainly would object. Surely that's a key part of the issue here -- a lookalike isn't the same person and won't automatically feel the same way or want the same things that you may want them to.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

To expect them to be anything less or more than themselves just to suit your preferences is ridiculous.

 

[Christopher]

To expect them to be anything less or more than themselves just to suit your preferences is ridiculous.

If we were just talking about a twin, yes. But in "The Survivor," the Vendorian "Winston" talked about how closely his people identify with those they impersonate, and how he grew so close to Winston that he came to feel he was Winston. It was the fact that he shared Winston's values and sympathies that made him unable to complete his spy mission. So the idea was that he had essentially become Carter Winston, in personality as well as form -- that Winston lived on in him, to an extent. So it wasn't just about his appearance.

Of course, the Korby android literally did have Korby's personality and memories, not just an approximation of them. But TOS was generally pretty closed-minded about the idea of AI sapience, unlike its successor shows, so the possibility that the android was still genuinely Korby was never considered. And I guess you could argue that his actions proved that he didn't have the true spirit and values of Roger Korby -- while, by contrast, the Vendorian's actions showed that he did have Carter Winston's values.

 

[Timo]

It is very difficult to argue what Korby's actions would prove since we have no real point of comparison. All we have is the statement from Chapel, but that's distorted beyond all utility by her anti-machine sentiments, even if we forget about the apparent lack of contact between Korby and Chapel in their earlier life and the subsequent half-decade separation.

Some people make it easy, or at least make it possible to some extent. They recognize that there are people they want to share with - it's like writing a letter to thirty people. You still didn't know for certain that nobody would share it with someone you didn't want to read it.

Except today it's basically impossible to make it even mildly difficult, and there are no social mores against stalking your date or would-be employee or that friend of your son's from school. The issue of consent has totally evaporated thanks to technology, and nobody appears to mind.

I can't for the life of me think of a reverse trend brought about by technology. As soon as mass media were invented, it became mandatory to appear in them. Streamlining of economy has eroded the role of consent in the movement of wealth ever since the invention of money. And while families may have grown narrower in scope, isolating people from each other and seemingly creating more privacy of homes, it's on a less secure social and legal footing today than it was yesterday.

Big difference between having images of them in life as opposed to corpse photos/bodies on shelves. For some people, I understand it might be the only photo they had of them, though, being too poor to have one taken in life (Victorian days).

Big difference? Minor technicality. And as soon as the option emerges not to give up on a visual likeness, it will be embraced. People don't want to look like themselves even today, preferring to look desirable - moving to a new reality where people look like desired people is simply going to happen.

Timo Saloniemi