Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Is Jonah Nolan the same as Jonathon Nolan?
Is Jonah Nolan the same as Jonathon Nolan?
Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman film
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Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Yet, the implication that Lois does really love Clark and not Superman is subtle in Superman II as it was in the pre-Crisis comics. In both, Lois is constantly trying to prove that Clark is Superman. Why? Because her ego can't accept that she'd really be in love with the mild-mannered, slightly goofy, glasses-wearing reporter, so she has to prove that he really is the ubermensch of her dreams.
However, the pre-Crisis comics explored that more than Superman Returns, which completely forgot the Clark Kent/Lois Lane relationship, or the Donner Films. In the comics, Lois instantly gravitated toward Clark whenever Superman was out of the picture and Clark Kent asserted himself as more of a person than a "disguise". Same thing happened for the Earth-2 Lois when a dastardly magician vanquished Earth-2 Superman into "nothingness", Clark Kent emerged from the ashes without any memory of Superman. Lois instantly fell for Clark, and they were married. Even when Superman "returned" and Lois wed him in a Kryptonian ceremony, she remained Lois Lane-Kent, wife of mild-mannered reporter cum editor Clark Kent.
I thought Margot Kidder was great in Superman: The Movie but was horrible in the Lester-directed portions of Superman II. Moreover, she is a helluvalot better looking in the cinematography in Donner's shots than in Lester's.
Yet, the implication that Lois does really love Clark and not Superman is subtle in Superman II as it was in the pre-Crisis comics. In both, Lois is constantly trying to prove that Clark is Superman. Why? Because her ego can't accept that she'd really be in love with the mild-mannered, slightly goofy, glasses-wearing reporter, so she has to prove that he really is the ubermensch of her dreams.
However, the pre-Crisis comics explored that more than Superman Returns, which completely forgot the Clark Kent/Lois Lane relationship, or the Donner Films. In the comics, Lois instantly gravitated toward Clark whenever Superman was out of the picture and Clark Kent asserted himself as more of a person than a "disguise". Same thing happened for the Earth-2 Lois when a dastardly magician vanquished Earth-2 Superman into "nothingness", Clark Kent emerged from the ashes without any memory of Superman. Lois instantly fell for Clark, and they were married. Even when Superman "returned" and Lois wed him in a Kryptonian ceremony, she remained Lois Lane-Kent, wife of mild-mannered reporter cum editor Clark Kent.
I thought Margot Kidder was great in Superman: The Movie but was horrible in the Lester-directed portions of Superman II. Moreover, she is a helluvalot better looking in the cinematography in Donner's shots than in Lester's.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Sort of inherent to any realistic take on Superman. In the end of the day, he's still a Caucasian-looking extraterrestial who is invincible and capable of flight. He also has a foolproof disguise that involves just wearing a pair of glasses. You can make it look as if it happened, but you can't make it seem plausible.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Yes. Jonah is Jonathan's preferred nickname, even though he goes professionally by Jonathan Nolan. I just call him J-Nol.
Yes. Jonah is Jonathan's preferred nickname, even though he goes professionally by Jonathan Nolan. I just call him J-Nol.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
That probably has more to do with the drugs than the cinematography.
Wow. That's all I have to say about that.
That probably has more to do with the drugs than the cinematography.
Wow. That's all I have to say about that.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Word to your mother.
Word to your mother.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Heh - thanks. I have this thing for comic book history and I believe that Lois is routinely not given her due as a major figure in superhero history. After all she appeared in the very first Action comics story featuring Superman and is thus a more foundational character in superhero comics than Batman and Wonder Woman.
As for WW/ Superman - well, the whole integrated universe thing that DC and Marvel are so into has a rather unintended consequence - and that's a tendency towards soap opera. I mean, it's bound to happen in any ongoing story where nothing can ever be resolved and you have to keep the dramatic tension going. So I think Wonder Woman presents as the only character who even has a shot at drawing Clark's attention from Lois - and as you say, that's usually only if Lois has been dispatched in one way or another. Kingdom Come was sort of fun since they made it into an attraction/ conflict story between them.
But I'm rather fond of a great one-shot written by Joe Kelly called "A Thousand Years" in which Superman and Wonder Woman are whisked into an alternate dimension to fight a war with the Norse Gods. The war goes on for a thousand years and as Clark slowly forgets Lois' voice, her scent, her smile, and Diana is there beside him, beautiful and alive and he knows Lois has been dead for centuries - he finally looks at Diana when she comes to him and says, "Even after a thousand years, she is the only one." When they win the battle the next day, they are granted any wish, and Clark wishes to be taken back to the day when they were pulled away. And he goes straight to Lois. It's a lovely story - apparently meant to put to rest the rumblings of a Supes/WW pairing.
Then they all started trying to hook Wonder Woman up with Batman. She was with Aquaman for a while there too. What it all really comes down to is no one knows what to do romance-wise with Wonder Woman since they ditched her standard human love interest Steve Trevor back in the 80s.
I completely agree - the movies desperately need to move off the Silver Age Superman/ Lois/ Clark love triangle. It's been done to death. They can't seem to do anything with it but milk it for cheap humor and kind of lame/ tweeny angst anyway.
A big, powerful villain is needed for sure. Warners seems hesitant to take Superman into the science fiction realm and give him space-born enemies despite the fact that, you know, he's an alien.
I think Nolan's skill is tension. He knows how to tell a tense story. That doesn't necessarily mean dark. Batman Begins is not particularly dark - I mean it's the tale of a man finding his justice-driven heroic destiny, and the ending is positively glowy.
Heh - thanks. I have this thing for comic book history and I believe that Lois is routinely not given her due as a major figure in superhero history. After all she appeared in the very first Action comics story featuring Superman and is thus a more foundational character in superhero comics than Batman and Wonder Woman.
As for WW/ Superman - well, the whole integrated universe thing that DC and Marvel are so into has a rather unintended consequence - and that's a tendency towards soap opera. I mean, it's bound to happen in any ongoing story where nothing can ever be resolved and you have to keep the dramatic tension going. So I think Wonder Woman presents as the only character who even has a shot at drawing Clark's attention from Lois - and as you say, that's usually only if Lois has been dispatched in one way or another. Kingdom Come was sort of fun since they made it into an attraction/ conflict story between them.
But I'm rather fond of a great one-shot written by Joe Kelly called "A Thousand Years" in which Superman and Wonder Woman are whisked into an alternate dimension to fight a war with the Norse Gods. The war goes on for a thousand years and as Clark slowly forgets Lois' voice, her scent, her smile, and Diana is there beside him, beautiful and alive and he knows Lois has been dead for centuries - he finally looks at Diana when she comes to him and says, "Even after a thousand years, she is the only one." When they win the battle the next day, they are granted any wish, and Clark wishes to be taken back to the day when they were pulled away. And he goes straight to Lois. It's a lovely story - apparently meant to put to rest the rumblings of a Supes/WW pairing.
Then they all started trying to hook Wonder Woman up with Batman. She was with Aquaman for a while there too. What it all really comes down to is no one knows what to do romance-wise with Wonder Woman since they ditched her standard human love interest Steve Trevor back in the 80s.
I completely agree - the movies desperately need to move off the Silver Age Superman/ Lois/ Clark love triangle. It's been done to death. They can't seem to do anything with it but milk it for cheap humor and kind of lame/ tweeny angst anyway.
A big, powerful villain is needed for sure. Warners seems hesitant to take Superman into the science fiction realm and give him space-born enemies despite the fact that, you know, he's an alien.
I think Nolan's skill is tension. He knows how to tell a tense story. That doesn't necessarily mean dark. Batman Begins is not particularly dark - I mean it's the tale of a man finding his justice-driven heroic destiny, and the ending is positively glowy.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
That sounds like a great story.
Has Steve Trevor really never reappeared? That's kind of a shame. I came up with some ideas for a Wonder Woman movie/story a couple years ago and he was a prominent part of it. I thought it would have been interesting if he fell in love with Diana Prince his secretary rather than WW. Mind, you could also say that's kind of interesting to do with Lois and Clark.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
In Wonder Woman's post-Crisis revamp Steve Trevor was made quite a bit older than his earlier incarnation, and he and Wonder Woman never became romantically involved. He ended up married to Etta Candy.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying the Donner movie was nowhere near realistic in its portrayal of the characterizations or the world in which Superman operated. Fantasy can be handled in a realistic manner. Indeed, Richard Matheson says that's how fantasy should be handled -- postulate one impossible element (in this case, Superman) and keep everything around it as grounded and believable as possible.
That's what I want to see from a Nolan-supervised Superman film -- something where Superman is who he is and does what he does, but where he exists in a realistic world with well-rounded, believable characters behaving in believable ways. Where the villains are actually credible threats rather than campy comic relief. Where the story isn't resolved by some idiotic deus ex machina ending like Earth-rewinding powers. Instead of giving Superman whatever magical abilities are convenient at a given moment (and Earth-rewind power is every bit as stupid in its way as Superman IV's rebuild-the-Great-Wall-of-China-vision), establish a fixed set of abilities and plausibly depict the effects and limits they'd have if they existed. That's what distinguishes logical storytelling from ludicrous: that even if the story revolves around an impossible thing, it takes that one impossibility and extrapolates its consequences in a realistic and well-thought-out fashion. (This is the basis of a lot of science fiction. For instance, when Alfred Bester postulated the impossibility of human self-teleportation in The Stars My Destination, he didn't treat everything around it as random and ridiculous, but logically thought through the sociological consequences of such a change in the world.) The comics have done this with Superman's powers in the past, coming up with semi-plausible scientific explanations for them (from supergravity-bred muscles to solar-powered forcefields) and keeping them within consistent limits (at least to an extent). It is very possible to treat a fantasy premise with verisimilitude, and so there's no reason a movie couldn't do it as well as comics and prose fiction have done in the past.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying the Donner movie was nowhere near realistic in its portrayal of the characterizations or the world in which Superman operated. Fantasy can be handled in a realistic manner. Indeed, Richard Matheson says that's how fantasy should be handled -- postulate one impossible element (in this case, Superman) and keep everything around it as grounded and believable as possible.
That's what I want to see from a Nolan-supervised Superman film -- something where Superman is who he is and does what he does, but where he exists in a realistic world with well-rounded, believable characters behaving in believable ways. Where the villains are actually credible threats rather than campy comic relief. Where the story isn't resolved by some idiotic deus ex machina ending like Earth-rewinding powers. Instead of giving Superman whatever magical abilities are convenient at a given moment (and Earth-rewind power is every bit as stupid in its way as Superman IV's rebuild-the-Great-Wall-of-China-vision), establish a fixed set of abilities and plausibly depict the effects and limits they'd have if they existed. That's what distinguishes logical storytelling from ludicrous: that even if the story revolves around an impossible thing, it takes that one impossibility and extrapolates its consequences in a realistic and well-thought-out fashion. (This is the basis of a lot of science fiction. For instance, when Alfred Bester postulated the impossibility of human self-teleportation in The Stars My Destination, he didn't treat everything around it as random and ridiculous, but logically thought through the sociological consequences of such a change in the world.) The comics have done this with Superman's powers in the past, coming up with semi-plausible scientific explanations for them (from supergravity-bred muscles to solar-powered forcefields) and keeping them within consistent limits (at least to an extent). It is very possible to treat a fantasy premise with verisimilitude, and so there's no reason a movie couldn't do it as well as comics and prose fiction have done in the past.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
From the IESB link JA provided earlier:
From the IESB link JA provided earlier:
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Sounds promising. I have the impression that Silver was the main obstacle to getting Joss Whedon's version made.
Although I'm thinking that the best choice to write a Wonder Woman movie would be Gail Simone. Maybe with Whedon directing?
Sounds promising. I have the impression that Silver was the main obstacle to getting Joss Whedon's version made.
Although I'm thinking that the best choice to write a Wonder Woman movie would be Gail Simone. Maybe with Whedon directing?
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
No quippy Amazons please.
No quippy Amazons please.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Whedon had his shot at Wonder Woman. And now that he's also coming off of a failed TV series, I seriously doubt that Warner Bros. will bother with him again.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
Lord only knows who Warners will turn to for this one. Wonder Woman is harder than all the others put together.
1. Her mission as currently conceived is far more complicated to get across to an audience than Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc - they all follow a certain, familiar mythic form which is sort of, but not quite applicable to Wonder Woman. A complicated mission is problematic in a superhero movie. Witness Wolverine. And WW is even harder than that because the mission has all this gender baggage attached to it. Are men the bad guys? Doesn't that feel all 1974? If men aren't the bad guys, does that mean Diana comes from a culture of weird zealots? Basically, someone needs to reconceive her origins because what flies in the comics isn't going to work for a broad audience. And that's not even getting into the deeper gender stuff like having a supposedly feminist icon warrior running around in an outfit primarily designed to show off her tits and ass.
2. Her imagery is confused. An Amazon styled as if she is the inheritor of classical Greek culture (Amazons were actually enemies of the Greeks, hated and reviled by the Greeks), with a Roman name wearing an American flag bathing suit to fight crime? And all this classical stuff is hard to translate to a contemporary audience anyway even if you don't know how muddled it is in terms of actual history. Although if there was ever a time, it's now with Percy Jackson and the Olympians, Clash of the Titans and God of War all in the hopper. Or else it runs the risk of coming out after all this when the public is sick of Greek mythology in the movies.
So I say to Warners - good luck with that.
Lord only knows who Warners will turn to for this one. Wonder Woman is harder than all the others put together.
1. Her mission as currently conceived is far more complicated to get across to an audience than Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc - they all follow a certain, familiar mythic form which is sort of, but not quite applicable to Wonder Woman. A complicated mission is problematic in a superhero movie. Witness Wolverine. And WW is even harder than that because the mission has all this gender baggage attached to it. Are men the bad guys? Doesn't that feel all 1974? If men aren't the bad guys, does that mean Diana comes from a culture of weird zealots? Basically, someone needs to reconceive her origins because what flies in the comics isn't going to work for a broad audience. And that's not even getting into the deeper gender stuff like having a supposedly feminist icon warrior running around in an outfit primarily designed to show off her tits and ass.
2. Her imagery is confused. An Amazon styled as if she is the inheritor of classical Greek culture (Amazons were actually enemies of the Greeks, hated and reviled by the Greeks), with a Roman name wearing an American flag bathing suit to fight crime? And all this classical stuff is hard to translate to a contemporary audience anyway even if you don't know how muddled it is in terms of actual history. Although if there was ever a time, it's now with Percy Jackson and the Olympians, Clash of the Titans and God of War all in the hopper. Or else it runs the risk of coming out after all this when the public is sick of Greek mythology in the movies.
So I say to Warners - good luck with that.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
WW purists would tear their hair out, but a dramatically restructured origin would be a much easier sell. Something along these lines perhaps: A baby is born to the Queen of the Amazons on Paradise Island (with one of the gods as her father, perhaps Zeus himself, rather than the whole made from clay bit). The baby is blessed by a number of the gods imbuing her with special powers.
But she has to be sent away and raised in secret in Man's World to keep her out of the clutches of Mars, who has some fiendish plot in mind. She's raised in the US by the Amazon guardians who brought her there, her powers kept dormant by some kind of shielding magic. As far as she knows, she's Diana Prince, All-American girl, raised by her aunts who came to America from Greece, raised to be a proud, strong woman. When she grows up she joins the Air Force. It's at this point that somehow she discovers her true origin, gains her powers, and becomes the target of Mars and his minions.
A woman director capable of kick ass action would be a nice touch: Kathryn Bigelow would be a great pick (if she'd accept the job).
WW purists would tear their hair out, but a dramatically restructured origin would be a much easier sell. Something along these lines perhaps: A baby is born to the Queen of the Amazons on Paradise Island (with one of the gods as her father, perhaps Zeus himself, rather than the whole made from clay bit). The baby is blessed by a number of the gods imbuing her with special powers.
But she has to be sent away and raised in secret in Man's World to keep her out of the clutches of Mars, who has some fiendish plot in mind. She's raised in the US by the Amazon guardians who brought her there, her powers kept dormant by some kind of shielding magic. As far as she knows, she's Diana Prince, All-American girl, raised by her aunts who came to America from Greece, raised to be a proud, strong woman. When she grows up she joins the Air Force. It's at this point that somehow she discovers her true origin, gains her powers, and becomes the target of Mars and his minions.
A woman director capable of kick ass action would be a nice touch: Kathryn Bigelow would be a great pick (if she'd accept the job).
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
I was just thinking she could do a good job. She's like the man equivalent of Paul Greengrass.
I was just thinking she could do a good job. She's like the man equivalent of Paul Greengrass.
Re: Chris Nolan is prepping Batman 3 and will mentor a new Superman fi
The island is clearly a big problem. It's hidden and cut off from the modern world. Its society consists of women only. And they wield magic, by the way.
I hope there's a talented screenwriter out there who can solve the island problem. Keep it in "our" world, or else make it part of another dimension. If you can somehow make Paradise Island work, everything else will be relatively simple. Oops, I just remembered the invisible plane...
Not bad at all, but I can already hear howls of outrage from purists because you've moved Diana's upbringing away from Paradise Island (or Themyscira).
The island is clearly a big problem. It's hidden and cut off from the modern world. Its society consists of women only. And they wield magic, by the way.
I hope there's a talented screenwriter out there who can solve the island problem. Keep it in "our" world, or else make it part of another dimension. If you can somehow make Paradise Island work, everything else will be relatively simple. Oops, I just remembered the invisible plane...
