Chakotay/Seven - the pairing that came out of nowhere.

[HelenofBorg]

There was only one movie with the Borg.

That's the Enterprise E's sickbay. So that ship is probably using nextgen tech one step beyond Bioneural Gel. Although Bev was suggesting that she had denied herself the opportunity to use an EMH for quite some time, so maybe there was an EMH on the Enterprise D?

Zimmerman asked Bashir why he didn't have an EMH. He claimed that Cardassian tech is incompatible, but maybe he was just afraid of his status being outed?

The rise of the EMH II, Andy Dick of all people, suggests that there must have been problems beyond that abrupt personality, since you gotta wonder why any one would run EMHII software on EMHI hardware?

New walls.

Ah... First Contact. I really should have remembered.

It wouldn't suprise me if Enterprise D also had an EMH, but what goes against that would be the lack of it ever being mentioned in TNG, or even holo-emitters being present in any area other than the holodecks for that matter. However, that doesn't mean necessarily that such wasn't there.

There could genuinely have been a compatibility problem with the EMH and Cardassian Technology, there was a hell of a lot of work O'Brien had to do when the Federation first got onto DS9 to get the station up to Federation spec. But you could be right, maybe the choice was made not because it couldn't be done, but because as you say, the hologram could have outed him. But that doesn't explain why he did not use an EMH after he was outed, surely after he no longer had his secret to protect, he could have used one.

As far as I am aware, all holograms need the same basic hardware, some computer storage space for their programs, and a holo-emitter, this in mind, why would EMH2 not be able to run using the same hardware as EMH1? I think it was probably the personality issue, but they could have just reprogrammed the EMH1s behavioural subroutines to counteract this problem. I guess though with any technology that's been around for a while, ways are found to improve and upgrage. I see EMH2 as the necessary next step in improvement.

 

[Sakonna]

I understand that you are joking, but I doubt that the Doctor was designed to run on bioneural gel packs, if there were only 5 ships in the fleet with bionueral gelpacks, since the Doctor is supposed to be plug and play to any local in the Federation, most of which will be still running isolinear chips, and maybe one or two shacks on the fringe might still be supported by transtators.

Well, I'm joking, but I do think the Doctor's sentience is well established in-universe. Within Star Trek logic, they sell his status as an evolving, living being, with the fact that the Doctor is the only EMH that ran that much, the many expansions and alterations of his program, the integration of even more futuristic technology into his existence, etc.

And I do love the fanwank that the X factor could have been the bio-neural gel pack power source. I'd forgotten the packs were mentioned as only being on 5 ships, but that works even better -- the other 4 EMH's were never turned on that long. (Maybe the first time the other EMH's were powered by bio-neural gel packs was when they got transferred to the dilithium mines. Maybe they were all just Siri on the ships, until the moment they were first activated in their new slave existence. Very "Black Mirror")

I don't think the limitations of modern technology and modern AI offer much to argue against the Doctor's sentience, simply because I don't think the Star Trek universe is working within that framework. This is a world of technology that is almost always also fairly magical... the universal translator, the transporter, the mycellial network, the transwarp barrier, the many other artificial lifeforms we meet, on and on and on. So, in-universe I am totally sold on the Doctor's sentience. They laid enough pipe on that. Magic pipe, but still.

Most AI above a red line will become sentient, unless the builder makes provisions to allow intelligence and forbid sentience. Locks and bolts. So when Geordie said "Create an opponent who can defeat Data" it wasn't The Singularity. Moriarty was not a hyper evolved super sentient hologram, Moriarty just had the sentience limiter that was limiting his sentience turned off. flick. The dirty secret that should have been revealed here, was that all holograms would be sentient if the Federation wanted them to be sentient, but they didn't, so they weren't.

I like this take!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, I'm joking, but I do think the Doctor's sentience is well established in-universe. Within Star Trek logic, they sell his status as an evolving, living being, with the fact that the Doctor is the only EMH that ran that much, the many expansions and alterations of his program, the integration of even more futuristic technology into his existence, etc.

And I do love the fanwank that the X factor could have been the bio-neural gel pack power source. I'd forgotten the packs were mentioned as only being on 5 ships, but that works even better -- the other 4 EMH's were never turned on that long. (Maybe the first time the other EMH's were powered by bio-neural gel packs was when they got transferred to the dilithium mines. Maybe they were all just Siri on the ships, until the moment they were first activated in their new slave existence. Very "Black Mirror")

I don't think the limitations of modern technology and modern AI offer much to argue against the Doctor's sentience, simply because I don't think the Star Trek universe is working within that framework. This is a world of technology that is almost always also fairly magical... the universal translator, the transporter, the mycellial network, the transwarp barrier, the many other artificial lifeforms we meet, on and on and on. So, in-universe I am totally sold on the Doctor's sentience. They laid enough pipe on that. Magic pipe, but still.



I like this take!

I still think that "it" is a thing, but you're polite and eloquent.

Cheers!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ah... First Contact. I really should have remembered.

It wouldn't suprise me if Enterprise D also had an EMH, but what goes against that would be the lack of it ever being mentioned in TNG, or even holo-emitters being present in any area other than the holodecks for that matter. However, that doesn't mean necessarily that such wasn't there.

There could genuinely have been a compatibility problem with the EMH and Cardassian Technology, there was a hell of a lot of work O'Brien had to do when the Federation first got onto DS9 to get the station up to Federation spec. But you could be right, maybe the choice was made not because it couldn't be done, but because as you say, the hologram could have outed him. But that doesn't explain why he did not use an EMH after he was outed, surely after he no longer had his secret to protect, he could have used one.

As far as I am aware, all holograms need the same basic hardware, some computer storage space for their programs, and a holo-emitter, this in mind, why would EMH2 not be able to run using the same hardware as EMH1? I think it was probably the personality issue, but they could have just reprogrammed the EMH1s behavioural subroutines to counteract this problem. I guess though with any technology that's been around for a while, ways are found to improve and upgrage. I see EMH2 as the necessary next step in improvement.

To a regular Doctor, the EMH is a superdoctor.

Bashir is a superman, therefore a superdoctor is basically an average janitor from his super perspective.



Dr. Pulaski is even more robophobic than I am.

If she had an EMH to taunt, then we did she spend all that time following Data around creepily yelling slurs at him, like "Go back to where you came from!" and "Stay away from our women!"

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yep.
I have to assume the Picard writers will have dealt with it as pretty much no one found it believable.

I suspect they'll not reference it at all.

Kinda like Troi/Worf was neverhappned in the movies.

 

[HelenofBorg]

To a regular Doctor, the EMH is a superdoctor.

Bashir is a superman, therefore a superdoctor is basically an average janitor from his super perspective.



Dr. Pulaski is even more robophobic than I am.

If she had an EMH to taunt, then we did she spend all that time following Data around creepily yelling slurs at him, like "Go back to where you came from!" and "Stay away from our women!"

Oh God, I remember Pulaski even getting the pronunciation of his name wrong when she came aboard the Enterprise. She asked what's the difference, and Data said 'One is my name, the other is not.' She would have had a field day with an EMH.

 

[Voth commando1]

I was always a Harry/Seven shipper and felt the Seven/Chakotay romance was really unbelievable and made little sense. In that there was little development of it and it just sort of happened late in season 7.

 

[marlboro]

Trek writers just aren't good at writing romance. They just seem to randomly toss characters together. Troi and Worf for example. A lot of the pairings in the later seasons of DS9 seemed to come out of left field too.

 

[Prax]

Well, work relationships usually do happen suddenly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Late night.

Keep photocopying, or deflower an intern.

 

[Riker'sMailbox]

It definitely came out of nowhere, but I don't find it to be an implausible pairing. In real life, relationships often come out of nowhere. But, that rarely translates well to the screen. Viewers want to see hints of attraction, banter, flirting, even antagonism. Something. We didn't get that.

So, is it surprising that two very good looking people find themselves starting a relationship suddenly? No. Does it make for good tv? No.

 

[Voth commando1]

Harry/7 had far more build up to it.

Though they probably would have needed to do that earlier, but seven wasn’t really ready for it.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

It definitely came out of nowhere, but I don't find it to be an implausible pairing. In real life, relationships often come out of nowhere. But, that rarely translates well to the screen. Viewers want to see hints of attraction, banter, flirting, even antagonism. Something. We didn't get that.

So, is it surprising that two very good looking people find themselves starting a relationship suddenly? No. Does it make for good tv? No.

If you do not mind, I would like to draw a parallel with another TV series I watch, DC's Supergirl and a the couple Lena Luthor/James Olsen, which appeared at the end of S3 and lasted until the middle of S4 and shared a lot with ST: Voyager's Chakotay/Seven. I present my excuses in advance because I know that some comment could upset some of you but well, let's go. .

First, both couple came out of nowhere ... mainly to occupy one of the actors producers/writers did not know what to do with him: Mehcad Brooks for Supergirl and Robert Beltran for Voyager => both had in my eyes, the charisma of an oyster without forgetting weak acting skills. Sorry but having a flattering physique & acting like a though guy are not always enough to acquire a certain recognition. Nope!)

Second, both couples made an implausible pairing with a strong female character (Seven for Voyager and Lena for Supergirl) associated with a guy who think being enough strong to channel her energy/personality (Chakotay for Voyager and James for Supergirl). In the end, the losers were Seven and Lena who lost what made their strength. The big difference is that in Supergirl, producers have stopped this mascarade
early enough so that it does not have disastrous consequences. Well, in the same time, a poll was made and released by Showcase about this particular pairing and the result was without any argument: to the question: "Do you guys still want Lena and James to be together?" The result was without any possible argument, 93% Ugh no and 7% Yes. . I guess that even if the gap would not have been so important, the pairing Chakotay/Seven was mostly rejected according to varied forums visited in the past.

Third, how can we believe that 2 people are madly in love while one of the two spent his time to judge/ criticize for who the other was/represented and made sure to keep her/him as far away as possible.
I am willing to believe that love can perform miracles but at least the two need to cross a minimum their paths or have at least one point of interest. In both cases, Chakotay/Seven and Lena/James have NOTHING in common.
As much we know that Lena/James lasted awhile but ended with Lena breaking up with him further to a Lena's decision he disapproved in S4, as much for Chakotay/Seven, we are told that they would have married until death separated them but non canon novels quickly took care to correct the storie's weft and were eager to separate Seven from Chakotay and vice versa. we can now see if ST: Picard will do the same and if it was the case, we would have confirmation that these 2 were really not made for each other maybe right the beginning despite all the efforts made by Voyager's producers/writers/actors (even if in their case, Beltran and Ryan did nothing to make this pairing believable! ).

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you do not mind, I would like to draw a parallel with another TV series I watch, DC's Supergirl and a the couple Lena Luthor/James Olsen, which appeared at the end of S3 and lasted until the middle of S4 and shared a lot with ST: Voyager's Chakotay/Seven. I present my excuses in advance because I know that some comment could upset some of you but well, let's go. .

First, both couple came out of nowhere ... mainly to occupy one of the actors producers/writers did not know what to do with him: Mehcad Brooks for Supergirl and Robert Beltran for Voyager => both had in my eyes, the charisma of an oyster without forgetting weak acting skills. Sorry but having a flattering physique & acting like a though guy are not always enough to acquire a certain recognition. Nope!)

Second, both couples made an implausible pairing with a strong female character (Seven for Voyager and Lena for Supergirl) associated with a guy who think being enough strong to channel her energy/personality (Chakotay for Voyager and James for Supergirl). In the end, the losers were Seven and Lena who lost what made their strength. The big difference is that in Supergirl, producers have stopped this mascarade
early enough so that it does not have disastrous consequences. Well, in the same time, a poll was made and released by Showcase about this particular pairing and the result was without any argument: to the question: "Do you guys still want Lena and James to be together?" The result was without any possible argument, 93% Ugh no and 7% Yes. . I guess that even if the gap would not have been so important, the pairing Chakotay/Seven was mostly rejected according to varied forums visited in the past.

Third, how can we believe that 2 people are madly in love while one of the two spent his time to judge/ criticize for who the other was/represented and made sure to keep her/him as far away as possible.
I am willing to believe that love can perform miracles but at least the two need to cross a minimum their paths or have at least one point of interest. In both cases, Chakotay/Seven and Lena/James have NOTHING in common.
As much we know that Lena/James lasted awhile but ended with Lena breaking up with him further to a Lena's decision he disapproved in S4, as much for Chakotay/Seven, we are told that they would have married until death separated them but non canon novels quickly took care to correct the storie's weft and were eager to separate Seven from Chakotay and vice versa. we can now see if ST: Picard will do the same and if it was the case, we would have confirmation that these 2 were really not made for each other maybe right the beginning despite all the efforts made by Voyager's producers/writers/actors (even if in their case, Beltran and Ryan did nothing to make this pairing believable! ).

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[Riker'sMailbox]

Okay, so I am on my second viewing of Voyager and I am picking up on things that I did not really notice the first time around.

Last night, I watched 'One Small Step' and there were a few moments between them where it seemed like they were trying to understand each other better and that they were both a bit amused, at times, by the other. Their scenes together did not feel forced or rushed. Had they continued to develop, in this manner, after this episode, it would have been more believable.

 

[eschaton]

I seem to recall reading that Beltran kind of demanded they write the relationship in because he was frustrated with how little time they were giving his character.

 

[Athena28]

If you do not mind, I would like to draw a parallel with another TV series I watch, DC's Supergirl and a the couple Lena Luthor/James Olsen, which appeared at the end of S3 and lasted until the middle of S4 and shared a lot with ST: Voyager's Chakotay/Seven. I present my excuses in advance because I know that some comment could upset some of you but well, let's go. .

First, both couple came out of nowhere ... mainly to occupy one of the actors producers/writers did not know what to do with him: Mehcad Brooks for Supergirl and Robert Beltran for Voyager => both had in my eyes, the charisma of an oyster without forgetting weak acting skills. Sorry but having a flattering physique & acting like a though guy are not always enough to acquire a certain recognition. Nope!)

Second, both couples made an implausible pairing with a strong female character (Seven for Voyager and Lena for Supergirl) associated with a guy who think being enough strong to channel her energy/personality (Chakotay for Voyager and James for Supergirl). In the end, the losers were Seven and Lena who lost what made their strength. The big difference is that in Supergirl, producers have stopped this mascarade
early enough so that it does not have disastrous consequences. Well, in the same time, a poll was made and released by Showcase about this particular pairing and the result was without any argument: to the question: "Do you guys still want Lena and James to be together?" The result was without any possible argument, 93% Ugh no and 7% Yes. . I guess that even if the gap would not have been so important, the pairing Chakotay/Seven was mostly rejected according to varied forums visited in the past.

Third, how can we believe that 2 people are madly in love while one of the two spent his time to judge/ criticize for who the other was/represented and made sure to keep her/him as far away as possible.
I am willing to believe that love can perform miracles but at least the two need to cross a minimum their paths or have at least one point of interest. In both cases, Chakotay/Seven and Lena/James have NOTHING in common.
As much we know that Lena/James lasted awhile but ended with Lena breaking up with him further to a Lena's decision he disapproved in S4, as much for Chakotay/Seven, we are told that they would have married until death separated them but non canon novels quickly took care to correct the storie's weft and were eager to separate Seven from Chakotay and vice versa. we can now see if ST: Picard will do the same and if it was the case, we would have confirmation that these 2 were really not made for each other maybe right the beginning despite all the efforts made by Voyager's producers/writers/actors (even if in their case, Beltran and Ryan did nothing to make this pairing believable! ).

So assuming the writers were going to give Seven a romance no matter what do you see anyone on board that would have worked?

 

[Kor]

The guy she broke lobsters with.

Kor

 

[Guy Gardener]

The guy she broke lobsters with.

Kor

He was a tricycle, Chakotay was a 10 speed, next, this lady should be looking at Vespers.

 

[cosmic mouse]

Okay, so I am on my second viewing of Voyager and I am picking up on things that I did not really notice the first time around.

Last night, I watched 'One Small Step' and there were a few moments between them where it seemed like they were trying to understand each other better and that they were both a bit amused, at times, by the other. Their scenes together did not feel forced or rushed. Had they continued to develop, in this manner, after this episode, it would have been more believable.

There are a few other eps that have small moments like this in them... I had a list at one point, but it's gone now. It was a small # of eps, but the potential was still there.