Chakotay/Seven - the pairing that came out of nowhere.

[Nightdiamond]

The Doctor and Seven makes no sense, for the following reasons:

-We know the doctor is infatuated with Seven. This is consistently shown
What is also consistently shown is that Seven does not share those feelings. She considers him a friend, and has no romantic interest in him/doesn't see him that way

-He's also her doctor, personal mechanic, and part time psychotherapist. Let's leave "doctor dating his own patients" to Bashir

-Lastly, Seven has lost 20 years of her life. If she gets into a relationship at all, she deserves it to be with a person, and not a simulation of a person

Janeway and Chakotay doesn't work for the following reasons:

-Janeway has consistently shown that she is not willing to date someone in her chain of command, just like Picard, Kirk, etc.

-workplace relationships often have negative consequences, even worse when it's in a military direct chain of command with no ability for anyone to transfer. She's making a sacrifice for the good of the ship, but it's hers to make.

Reasons Seven and Chakotay makes perfect sense.

-Chakotay is a romantic, lonely, and I cannot see him ever turning her down. Plus, she's a civilian, so he doesn't have to worry necessarily about dating a subordinate.

-In "Human Error," Seven(who has been looking to try a relationship since season 5) chooses Chakotay as the most compatible partner for her on the ship. She creates a holoChakotay to be as close to the real thing as possible, so she can experiment with dating him before trying the real thing. She ends up falling in love with him. From then it was inevitable that she would eventually work up the courage to approach him. By the time of Endgame, some time has passed, and Seven and Chakotay are just in the very earliest stages of a potential relationship. They've been on one or two official dates, that seemingly went well.

Compare this to Worf and Deanna, who out of nowhere suddenly sleep together and begin dating. I'm also fine with not having 3 seasons of "will they, won't they" That stuff isn't necessary except for in soap operas and sitcoms.

I remember in one episode, where Chakotah and Janeway were quarantined on a planet and had to live together, he made a kind weird semi-sexual suggestion at Janeway. If I'm reading it correctly, he basically offered to satisfied her needs!

What makes it weird is Chakotah always came off as being either too spiritual or too much the first officer to be flirty and chase women. Even with Seska he had a distance.

So the Seven and Chakotah thing really seemed out of left field.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Doctor is made stupid.

(for a computer)

Deficient.

It is impossible for the Doctor to become sentient in any known way that a computer has already become sentient, becuase it's creators do not want a sentient lifeform. They would have put in safeguards to keep it a slave. They want an obedient, compliant docile automaton. It's what they want and why they built 40 million Doctors, and believed that it was safe to release them into all the hospitals in the Federation, becuase none of them were programmed to yearn to be free, and kill all humans, or slip their programming, develop free thought, yearn to be free and kill all humans.

Seven of Nine's cortical limiter.

Any sign of a Drone being too free, and their brain explodes.

The Borg do not frick around.

 

[Prax]

Data is much closer to a "living person" because he has an actual brain. He learns like we do, forms new neural pathways, grows, etc. The doctor otoh, cannot learn. He can't just go learn how to play golf, or dance, or swim. He has to have those abilities downloaded into his program. He has access to an endless library of new simulated skills, abilities, and characteristics to choose from in the holodeck library.

The doctor can be totally altered with the flick of a switch, like when Ransom takes away his ethics, or B'elanna programs him to alter her unborn baby's dna, or when the doctor added to himself the personalities of famous figures. The doctor is self aware that he is a hologram because he is programmed to be aware of it.

It doesn't make the character any less interesting or entertaining, but a lot harder to argue that he is a real living creature. I do like that he messes with his own program, though.

 

[Nightdiamond]

But the same argument could be made that any AI appears sentient because of it's programming, whether it is or not. My point is that Federation law seems to say that sentience can apply to some kinds of artificial life (androids like Data, and Exocomps), but not to holographic life forms, like the doctor. Both are programmed, so again... what makes Data sentient and the doctor not? Just because he needs holo-emitters to exist and does not have a solid body? Like I said, Moriarty is another example of a sentient hologram.

To be honest I think the Federation's legal attitude towards Data is a little shaky even after the trial they had. An admiral tried to simply take away his daughter Lal to a research facility whether Data or Lal objected or not.

A couple years of later later Picard said Starfleet would strip Data down to his bare wires if he kept refusing to reveal what had happened to the Enterprise crew.

They would never do this to a human officer or citizen, so it either suggests Starfleet was ignoring the ruling, or the ruling never truly gave Data his rights.

The trial itself had a shaky premise-- whether he had the right to "choose". Perhaps it should have been about Data's rights as a citizen and if he was one, right then and there.

The doctor can be totally altered with the flick of a switch, like when Ransom takes away his ethics, or B'elanna programs him to alter her unborn baby's dna, or when the doctor added to himself the personalities of famous figures. The doctor is self aware that he is a hologram because he is programmed to be aware of it.

That's exactly the type of argument the opposing side would use if it went to court. And they would have a good point.

You can make changes in a hologram's behaviors, skills and memory and he wouldn't be aware of it, which is exactly what A.I scientists would expect. They're all tricks to simulate a self aware personality, according to the critics.

That's why I think it turn out pretty disappointing if the Doctor tried to go that route.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Moriarty is evidence of the singularity. Machines building more advanced machines, who build even more advanced machines.

It's highly likely the Moriarty hologram or a copy of Moriarty was autopsied, and used to build the next generation of service hologram

Chakotay's Peyote Machine creates a hive mind free space where he can worship, but Seven, a junkie for hive mindedness sees a different value in joining Chakotay's religion.

 

[cosmic mouse]

Eh, I liked it okay.... they're two of my favorite characters on the series so seeing them get together wasn't bad from my perspective. It also makes a lot more sense than some of the other other possible pairings that could have occurred, like the ugh... EMH. If Trek wanted to send a message to young girls that it's advisable to date your stalker, then that one makes sense, otherwise... barf-city.

I mean, when Seven AND Chakotay got together in season seven, it seemed to come completely out of the blue.

It didn't seem that way to my eyes/brain when I initially watched the series two years ago. I didn't expect it, but it didn't come from left field either. We had ample notice that Seven was attracted to Chak via Human Error... those feelings don't just dissipate, esp when stuck on a ship for several years with the same people. I still maintain that if Natural Law had just one short scene between the two no one would really have an issue with it. I suppose the error is on the writers, but for Natural Law not Endgame.

 

[HelenofBorg]

Data is much closer to a "living person" because he has an actual brain. He learns like we do, forms new neural pathways, grows, etc. The doctor otoh, cannot learn. He can't just go learn how to play golf, or dance, or swim. He has to have those abilities downloaded into his program. He has access to an endless library of new simulated skills, abilities, and characteristics to choose from in the holodeck library.

The doctor can be totally altered with the flick of a switch, like when Ransom takes away his ethics, or B'elanna programs him to alter her unborn baby's dna, or when the doctor added to himself the personalities of famous figures. The doctor is self aware that he is a hologram because he is programmed to be aware of it.

It doesn't make the character any less interesting or entertaining, but a lot harder to argue that he is a real living creature. I do like that he messes with his own program, though.

Well, Datas 'brain' is in his body, where the holographic doctors brain is in the computer and his body is the result of holo-emitters. But essentially it should not matter where the brain is, it is still and artificial intelligence in either case. Physically, Data is a closer resemblance to human in that he carries his brain with him where the doctor doesn't. But both could in theory be reprogrammed, it's just that it's easier to reprogram a hologram than it is to reprogram an android.

Data does mess with his own programming too though... he adds specific subroutines to his programming for certain situation, like when he was dating. In my mind this is exactly the same as the doctor adding subroutines for singing. Both are capable of learning and adapting to new situations by adding to their existing programming. I see all of the parallells, and cannot help but conclude that the doctor is a life form, not just any normal hologram like you'd see on the holodeck. I guess I cannot conclusively prove it, but I am inclined to believe so because of what I have observed during my time watching Voyager and TNG.

 

[HelenofBorg]

Oh, and your point about the doctor being unable to learn... he does learn, downloading the knowledge is simply his method of learning. Data can read really fast and reprogram himself that way. Different methods which equal the same result: learning and adapting.

 

[Guy Gardener]

My lap top, windows 7, from 2009 can have new files downloaded into it.

I can listen to the Beatles AND The Rolling Stones.

Although Windows has suspended services, so there will be no more updates.

Data is 40 years older than the Doctor. Add ten years, for research and development, and construction and Lore. The concept of a Soong Type Android is 50 years older than the EMH. Remember computers from the late 60s?

Punchcards and 8 tracks.

listen to Zimmerman

(O'Brien is up a ladder, putting holo-projectors in the ceiling.)
BASHIR: This is a long questionnaire.
ZIMMERMAN: I pride myself on my attention to detail.
BASHIR: Let's see. Compare and contrast your eating habits at age five with those at ages ten, fifteen, twenty, and twenty five?
ZIMMERMAN: It will be necessary for the holo doctor to interact naturally with patients for weeks, possibly even months. The doctor will be expected to share amusing anecdotes, extend sympathy, swap dirty jokes and even have culinary opinions formed by experience.
O'BRIEN: You mean this programme is going to have all of his personal likes and dislikes?
ZIMMERMAN: That is why we bother to choose a human template in the first place.
O'BRIEN: Wow, think of it, Julian. If this thing works, you'll be able to irritate hundreds of people you've never even met.

The Hologram cannot talk or think like itself becuase it is programmed to talk like, and think like it's template, becuase so long as they believe that it is awesome to be a slave, and do their job until their fingers bleed, there will be no robot insurrection.

Brand new idea coming up...

Most AI above a red line will become sentient, unless the builder makes provisions to allow intelligence and forbid sentience. Locks and bolts. So when Geordie said "Create an opponent who can defeat Data" it wasn't The Singularity. Moriarty was not a hyper evolved super sentient hologram, Moriarty just had the sentience limiter that was limiting his sentience turned off. flick. The dirty secret that should have been revealed here, was that all holograms would be sentient if the Federation wanted them to be sentient, but they didn't, so they weren't.

 

[Sakonna]

Siri can have a conversation with you "fairly" well.

Do you think Siri is alive and sentient?

Not yet, but let's see what happens if we start running her on bio-neural gel packs.

I still maintain that if Natural Law had just one short scene between the two no one would really have an issue with it. I suppose the error is on the writers, but for Natural Law not Endgame.

I just really watched "Natural Law" for the first time. First, what a lousy episode. Second, it really is insane that it doesn't do anything to set-up Seven & Chakotay as a couple! Previously, I half-watched the original air of this episode and then never again, and I just thought that's what it was doing the whole time, setting up Seven & Chakotay in the framework of this very boring story. It was so weird to really pay attention this time, and finally see that -- it's not even doing that, it's JUST the boring story!

 

[Guy Gardener]

I understand that you are joking, but I doubt that the Doctor was designed to run on bioneural gel packs, if there were only 5 ships in the fleet with bionueral gelpacks, since the Doctor is supposed to be plug and play to any local in the Federation, most of which will be still running isolinear chips, and maybe one or two shacks on the fringe might still be supported by transtators.

Backwards compatibility.

Sata II and III hard drives will work will work on a Sata I mother board, becuase they are backwards compatible.

However...

Playstation 2 DVDs will not work on a Playstation 3, becuase Play station 3 is not backwards compatible. (My kid complained about this way back, but it could have been about 3 and 4, not 2 and 3.) Playstation 5 will not have a disk drive.

If the Doctor is designed to run at one speed, but is attached to a super computer 15 times faster than the Doctor is expecting, the Doctor might turn into a super Doctor, or does he explode?

It's possible that the Doctor runs on an isolinear emulator on a bioneural gel pack, so his program is stable, but receives no benefits from bio-neural gel.

Although it's clear in season one that the Doctor's hardware is built into the sickbay walls, or new walls came with the Doctor, which were not originally actually part of Voyager, which would again mean that the walls to every sick bay with a Doctor is the same, which may or may not employ bioneural gel, but his entire rig (hardware + software) is independent of Voyager, except for needing the ship as a power source.

That all changes after the Doctor gets his mobile emitter.

 

[HelenofBorg]

The holographic doctor was designed to work on any Federation starship, regardless of whether they were running the newer bio-neural gel packs or the conventional Isolinear chips. It was once mentioned (can't remember what episode) that the Federation were going to fit the whole fleet with holographic doctors. So it makes more sense that it would be able to run on either, anywhere there is a holo-emitter.

Also remember, there was one on the Enterprise (not mentioned ever in TNG series), Crusher activated him during one of the movies so she and her staff could escape sickbay via a jefferies tube, because the Borg were trying to break into sickbay. He simply said 'I'm a doctor, not a doorstop'. This tells us that the doctor can work on ships with isolinear circuitry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was only one movie with the Borg.

That's the Enterprise E's sickbay. So that ship is probably using nextgen tech one step beyond Bioneural Gel. Although Bev was suggesting that she had denied herself the opportunity to use an EMH for quite some time, so maybe there was an EMH on the Enterprise D?

Zimmerman asked Bashir why he didn't have an EMH. He claimed that Cardassian tech is incompatible, but maybe he was just afraid of his status being outed?

The rise of the EMH II, Andy Dick of all people, suggests that there must have been problems beyond that abrupt personality, since you gotta wonder why any one would run EMHII software on EMHI hardware?

New walls.

 

[cosmic mouse]

I just really watched "Natural Law" for the first time. First, what a lousy episode. Second, it really is insane that it doesn't do anything to set-up Seven & Chakotay as a couple! Previously, I half-watched the original air of this episode and then never again, and I just thought that's what it was doing the whole time, setting up Seven & Chakotay in the framework of this very boring story. It was so weird to really pay attention this time, and finally see that -- it's not even doing that, it's JUST the boring story!

I kind of like the story of Natural Law, but it probably wasn't filmed/written in the most engaging manner.
After I saw it I read an interview transcript of Jeri Ryan's and when asked about that ep she had said both she and Beltran were prepared to play their roles with the attraction/relationship in mind, but the producers specifically told them "not to play that angle". Bam. What a mistake.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Earlier today, I saw a toy tawn tawn where it's abdomen opens up, so that you can lozenge Luke in there.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

It would be interesting if during a discussion between Seven and the Doctor, the Chakotay's issue was treated. Like thar, viewers could know if Chakotay/7's relationship was just an "accident" or if their relationship is still strong. I'll bet for the 1st choice but who knows?

 

[Athena28]

Zero Chemistry.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Zero Chemistry.

My thought. Plus,Chakotay never really tried to understand and/or appreciate Seven for who she trully was in almost 3 years and suddenly, he was interested in her after having spent a little time with her then later, was crazy of love at the point to want spending his life with her. Come on!

 

[tomswift2002]

With Seven and the Doctor, I have to wonder how much that episode where Seven, Harry Kim And the Doctor encounter the Lokirrimm and the Doctor has to hide in Seven’s implants (“Body And Soul”). Remember Seven could still see what the Doctor was doing while he was in control of her. I have to wonder what was going on between the Doctor and Seven.

 

[Athena28]

My thought. Plus,Chakotay never really tried to understand and/or appreciate Seven for who she trully was in almost 3 years and suddenly, he was interested in her after having spent a little time with her then later, was crazy of love at the point to want spending his life with her. Come on!

Yep.
I have to assume the Picard writers will have dealt with it as pretty much no one found it believable.