Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

[Set Harth]

Lol, wut?! I saw the movie, and I know that, whether or not he immediately flew off, we didn't see him actively checking for survivors, much less helping any.

How can you be sure? You famously don't recall how the scene turned out... except when you do.

We also didn't see him "immediately flying off", no matter how many times you try to inject your make-believe into the film. ( Something that may have happened in a fanfic you're writing, perhaps? )

We also didn't see him decline to check for survivors. We also didn't see him refuse to help survivors.

But absence of evidence is the same thing as evidence of absence, right?

And I remember that not once during a save, apart from maybe his girlfriend's, did he crack any kind of smile or appear to be having fun.

Yeah, some people don't actually grin like idiots all the time, including when they're doing serious shit. Isn't it annoying?

Whether the movie does or doesn't show Supes immediately blasting away from the Capitol isn't the point.

Actually, it was the point of the discussion you chose to insert yourself into. As opposed to this shit:

I also remember a nonsensical "experimental bullets" plot that goes absolutely nowhere, as well as profoundly idiotic plot points such as Supes not bothering to clean up the world machine/toss it into space in the 18 months that preceded the story. (Hell, it wasn't even under a visible guard, just a wooden post in the water.)

...But it was a losing point, so you're trying to move the discussion somewhere else.

Once again, the point is that you're so desperate to find Superman screwups that you're inventing them.

Assuming that help actually happens would be you playing "an alternative version of the scene that you invented in your imagination."

I spoke of ambiguity, was that not clear enough for you? Ambiguity goes both ways, it doesn't somehow promote one position over the other. The burden of proof, in theory, is on the person making the allegation in the first place. It was a false claim. The film shows nothing of what was alleged. Deal with it.

 

[Star Wolf]

A bit hyoerbolic, don't you think?

Those people in Africa were killed before Superman arrived. At Congress, Superman was in the room when the bomb exploded and set the room ablaze. There was nothing he could do.

Fair point on Batfleck though. I still feel that Superman was the hero we were supposed to root for in BvS. It's just the whole world was out to tear him down. Batman, Luthor, Senator Finch, the various news outlets, that's a lot to cope with.

I thought that what they were going for was an analogy to Iraq. Superman taking out the warlord who threatened Lois and flying away leaving a war in his wake and the resulting deaths would be like the US going to take out Saddam without thinking of what next

 

[jep316]

I didn't get the orange slices thing. I didn't see Ant Man, was it something from that movie?.

Lang says he passed out when he grew before and I know as a diabetic when my suger level is low a orange will help boost my energy so the orange slice might be a reference to something like that.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Did no-one play sports as a kid?

How's about that he just got smacked around and taken out, left lying on his back. Akin to an American Football player having been tackled and left on the floor. Time out, quarter over... time for water, orange slices and a regroup.

Hugo - Screw isotonic or energy drinks. Half time orange slices, the only energy boost needed as a child when playing rugby

 

[Alidar Jarok]

That MCU Disguise™ has been around a while now. Even though I've noted it before, I was especially amused when Cap and Sam had a convo while both wore their no-logo cap and sunglasses combo.

It was also worn by (Jessica Jones spoilers):

Spoiler

Will Simpson (i.e., Nuke, although with a different first name) wore almost the exact same outfit as Steve. I thought it fit very well because they both dress up with the American flag

Thanks, but I don't think I should have to do a background check on a character in a movie in order to get his story.

But you don't have to know how he can run that fast in order to get his story. You picked something to nitpick that is explained in the comics. It was unexplained in the movie simply because it wasn't necessary for the story and would have bogged it down in exposition. All you needed to know in this movie was the character was badass.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

So, having looked through the thread, the main thing that jumps out at me is that a lot of people seem to think Peter's recruitment scene unnecessarily stopped the movie, which I actually really disagree with. Not only did the scene flow very well, and move very quickly, but it did, imo, connect to the main plot. It wasn't just an introduction to Spider-Man, it was also Tony trying to come to terms with how far he was willing to go to stop his friends and protect the accords. It's all about (at least based on how I saw it) him convincing himself that it's perfectly ok for him to take this innocent, naive kid and throw him into this ridiculous (and dangerous) situation. And it dovetails very nicely with the end of the airport scene, when Tony freaks out over the kid almost getting hurt taking out Giant Man (which I believe is the first moment in the movie where Tony finally starts to realize he's gone too far).

Also, there's quite a lot of discussion about whether it was an Avengers movie or a Captain America movie. Imo, this was actually one of the most amazing things about this movie, because it was actually clearly both at once, and both aspects of it felt complete and amazing. An incredible show of talent from the Russos on that score.

Also, in regards to supposed 'weaknesses' in Zemo's plan - I don't really see them. Sure, he couldn't guarantee exactly who would show up in the end, but he didn't need to, either. All he needed was Iron Man and Winter Soldier - those two would guarantee a knock down drag out fight, and anyone else on hand would just be caught up in the confusion. Different variations of groups would've made the fight longer or shorter, more or less devastating, but the wedge in the Avengers would exist either way and the fall of the Avengers' empire was already complete before that even happened (that happened when half the team defied the Accords).

And in regards to the blame being place on the Avengers: we've already seen on AoS that the public can't tell the difference between Hydra and Shield after Winter Soldier, so given the Avengers' origins as a Shield project and the fact that they clearly were responsible for AoU, it actually is kind of understandable that a lot of people would be more and more incapable of separating them from their enemies.

In a perfect world, the governments of the world should be a lot more rational than this (especially since shield/hydra was their own fault), but even the real world isn't that perfect, and the MCU world is filled with corrupt politics. And given his actions in TIH, it shouldn't be too surprising that Secretary Ross is actually a terrible overseer for the avengers. If that post had gone to someone more reasonable, they might have actually assuaged Cap's concerns from the start and prevented the entire mess.

One problem I have with the airport fight is Ant-Man going Giant. It was some impressive action, but the whole thing just ended up just being more destruction. Exactly the thing that the Sokovia Accords were meant to prevent. Did they have to bring down the control tower and destroy the airplanes? Who's going to pay for that?

Judging by previous movies, it's entirely possible Stark will. Or maybe T'Challa will step into similar patterns now.

Regardless of who pays for it, the movie did go out of its way to say the airport had been evacuated, and that Zemo's plan seemed (at the time) to involve the violent overthrow of an entire nation, or worse, so getting hung up on property damage seems rather unfair.

 

[Mr Light]

Tony Stark, you have 36 hours to search the entire world and bring in Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

OK. I'm going halfway across the world to New York City to introduce myself to a complete stranger I found on You Tube, convince him to join my cause, and work in a lab with him to design him a super-suit. Problem. Solved.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So, you think that street fight would have gone better without Peter?

(I would have requisitioned 50 highly trained SHIELD snipers, to strike at Steve surgically from 1/4 of a mile away.)

 

[Mr Light]

Nah, what I would have done is order The Vision not to conveniently disappear for most of the battle, since he could probably take down the entire Cap team single handedly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Worlds' Governments, after Ultron, probably have plans to deal with the Vision, so it would be lazy to rely on a liability about to be taken care of, for much.

 

[Tosk]

Nah, what I would have done is order The Vision not to conveniently disappear for most of the battle, since he could probably take down the entire Cap team single handedly.

He was hiding from Wanda.

 

[Trekker4747]

I wonder why they didn't have/use the "icers" from AOS.

 

[The Old Mixer]

When the Vision was going through Giant-Man, I was hoping he was going to pull his partial solidification trick.

I'm going halfway across the world to New York City to introduce myself to a complete stranger I found on You Tube, convince him to join my cause, and work in a lab with him to design him a super-suit.

He's Tony Stark. The question is, what does he do after lunch?

 

[Star Wolf]

So, you think that street fight would have gone better without Peter?

(I would have requisitioned 50 highly trained SHIELD snipers, to strike at Steve surgically from 1/4 of a mile away.)

Because it was a fight not a war and from the very start we were going to handle it in-house so the sludge's to use an Andromeda term wouldn't be endangered. That the Avengers not calling in the Nigerians to help contain a stick up crew in Lagos probably made things worse.

With the GSG-9 already having shoot to kill orders and their target also at the airport why start a second SHIELD Civil War and another refusal/mutiny "Captain's orders". Its kind of funny when you think of it cut the head of SHIELD and two emerge, the Fury/Hill Avengers support group on the helicarrier and the Coulson American ATCU heading SHIELD. Not to mention the Real SHIELD on a surviving aircraft carrier before they joined Coulson.

 

[Samurai8472]

Tony Stark, you have 36 hours to search the entire world and bring in Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

OK. I'm going halfway across the world to New York City to introduce myself to a complete stranger I found on You Tube, convince him to join my cause, and work in a lab with him to design him a super-suit. Problem. Solved.

Maybe Tony was keeping tabs on enhanced people like Peter. He's got surveillance in space that could rival Bruce Wayne.

Although that's always been a nagging thing.

People that NEED to know the secret identity can easily figure it out

Villains with the latest tech can't figure out your son's best friend is Spider-man(Norman Osborn

 

[B.J.]

Did no-one play sports as a kid?

How's about that he just got smacked around and taken out, left lying on his back. Akin to an American Football player having been tackled and left on the floor. Time out, quarter over... time for water, orange slices and a regroup.

Hugo - Screw isotonic or energy drinks. Half time orange slices, the only energy boost needed as a child when playing rugby

I played soccer, ran track, & did marching band (drums), don't remember orange slices (don't remember what we had at all, actually). My kids play sports now, and these days everything has to be pre-packaged and non-sugar, and oranges are a no-no just in case someone has a citrus allergy.

 

[Galileo7]

Fantastic movie....
Reintroducing Spider-man was a big task. I'd say this did a better job than Affleck as Batman.
We find out he's only been Spider-man for 6 months with a raggedy suit
He's even poorer than the other Peter Parker's we've known in the last 14 years
Dumpster diving for computer parts and using an old Mac
He lives in an apartment with his aunt may
I think Stark helping him out too much with all his gear might end up being a crutch later on
...

Agree, the Tony Stark/Ironman and Peter Parker/Spider-man(kid) dynamic was good to see done this way. I am looking forward to them both being in the Spider-man:Homecoming (2017) movie.

 

[tomalak301]

Just saw it and gave it a B

I usually worry about movies that are 2.5 to 3 hours long, but this one felt like it flew by. Maybe that's just being engrossed in the MCU and having most of these characters beig fully formed but my attention was basically on the screen the whole time.

I really liked the theme of regulation vs freedom of choice. However it did seem like no one asked the question that should have been asked which is how many people would die if the Avengers were NOT there. In fact, when that state defense person came to Stark and said her son was killed in the fight, I kinda had to roll my eyes. I get there are consequences to actions, but there are also consequences for inaction and it seemed like they were only focused on one side of the coin for the most part.

Other than that, this movie was the avengers I wished we had. In fact this didn't feel like a captain America movie, it felt like an avengers movie and I was fine with that. The stuff between Stark and Rogers was really well done and fulfilled the emotional resonance I think it was going for. Also that fight at the end when Stark learns the truth of his parents was gloriously personal and really well done.

As for the characters, Ant Man was probably better here than he was in that movie but did I miss something in terms of him growing really big. I know the end of Ant-Man was about him getting really really small but I don't remember him being big as a plot point. Black Panther was my favorite new character and I hope he's in more movies. Going in, Spider Man was almost a turn off and to be honest, I still don't understand why the critics are praising him here. When I was watching the trailer, it sounded like Spider-Man was going through puberty. I liked him in the movie and it was a nicely developed character, but was he needed? I would have to say no. I am intregued though to see this guys Spider-Man movie.

Overall, I enjoyed it and it was a great entry into the MCU. It's not as gripping as Winter Soldier, but I think I would place it on par with First Avenger.

 

[The Old Mixer]

In fact, when that state defense person came to Stark and said her son was killed in the fight, I kinda had to roll my eyes. I get there are consequences to actions, but there are also consequences for inaction and it seemed like they were only focused on one side of the coin for the most part.

I would tend to agree, but that's a bad example, as Tony created Ultron, and there would have been nothing for the Avengers to save the people of Sokovia from if he hadn't.

I know the end of Ant-Man was about him getting really really small but I don't remember him being big as a plot point.

His film had him enlarging inanimate objects (You can't have forgotten the giant toy train engine!), so the potential for Lang going Giant-Man was indirectly set up.

 

[tomalak301]

I would tend to agree, but that's a bad example, as Tony created Ultron, and there would have been nothing for the Avengers to save the people of Sokovia from if he hadn't.

Ok then what about the others. You want the villains to wreck havoc on cities? Heck even in this movie during the Nigeria scene and Scarlett collapsing the building. Yes it sucks you have collateral damage. But the alternative could be so much worse.

His film had him enlarging inanimate objects (You can't have forgotten the giant toy train engine!), so the potential for Lang going Giant-Man was indirectly set up.

I do remember that but I thought it was only other objects. It makes sense that it would work on himself but during the scene I don't remember it actually being established. Thanks for clarifying.