Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

[Cyke101]

Were people surprised when they "revealed" that Bucky killed the Starks? My theater gasped with shock at that. But they already revealed it in Winter Soldier, and they showed the car crash scene ?twice? before the revelation. I don't get it.

I believe the shock was more about who was in the car, rather than that Bucky killed them. We knew Bucky killed the occupants of the car as soon as he caused that crash.

But also, I don't think many people were expecting their deaths to be shown or to be that graphic. For many years we the audience knew that Howard Stark was assassinated, we just didn't know the story behind it.

 

[Admiral2]

G. Gordon Godfrey (Wow. I just got that. G. Gordon Liddy.) forced President Reagan's hand to criminalize Superheroes, but what was that? An executive order? Those still have to ratified by Congress.

Not quite...there are certain instances when the president's word has the weight of law.

The Emancipation Proclamation was essentially an executive order which Lincoln issued as commander in chief of the US military and pertained to territories controlled by the Union Army during the Civil War. This wasn't backed up by Congressional action until the war was over. Also, the injunction against US agents engaging in assassinations is not a law, It's an executive order that has to be renewed periodically by the sitting president. The order affects anyone in the Executive branch or anyone subject to executive authority.

And of course, there's the National Security Decision Directive, an executive order based on maintaining American security. In the example you cited, all Reagan would have to do is declare superheroes a threat to the security of the United States and "decide" that they must cease and desist all their non sanctioned activities or face government sanction. Then he could order the National Guard and CONUS (CINC-US) to enforce it.

It should have taken Glorious Godfrey years to take antisuperhero legislation from idea to practice, even with his mind control powers.

Legislation yes, but immediate anti-superhero action would have taken only as long as necessary to draft the NSDD and for Reagan to sign it.

Point is that it would have taken months or years for a 117 countries agree on signing this massive document, before they told Stark about it.

It's a UN document, which means it was negotiated by diplomats, and diplomats take orders from their executives, and the executives can always just order the document signed and hash it out with their legislators later. It's a treaty. You can always pull out of a treaty.

 

[JD]

Let's not go into your upside down, cracked moral compass from the Walking Dead threads, because it would be too easy.



T'Challa learned the truth and accepted it. He was there to watch his beloved father die in front of him, but after that in-your-face tragedy, the hunt, and fighting, he accepted the truth, and ended his attempt to kill Bucky. On the opposite end, Stark learned the truth and like the unstable person he is, attacked the innocent, and yes, a brainwashed man is innocent.

This cannot be difficult to understand.

But T'Challa was just as determined to kill Bucky right after his fathered died as Tony was.

 

[Xerxes82]

But T'Challa was just as determined to kill Bucky right after his fathered died as Tony was.

But there's a difference between someone who killed some people under brainwashing a long time ago, and a formerly brainwashed assassin who has taken up terrorism just now. And between what the Winter Soldier did, which is what Stark is blaming Bucky for, and what T'Challa thought Bucky had just then done. Because by Vienna, Bucky is no longer under HYDRA control. It's the difference between being forced and making a choice.

 

[Trekker4747]

Let's not go into your upside down, cracked moral compass from the Walking Dead threads, because it would be too easy.



T'Challa learned the truth and accepted it. He was there to watch his beloved father die in front of him, but after that in-your-face tragedy, the hunt, and fighting, he accepted the truth, and ended his attempt to kill Bucky. On the opposite end, Stark learned the truth and like the unstable person he is, attacked the innocent, and yes, a brainwashed man is innocent.

This cannot be difficult to understand.

HE WAS FACING THE MAN WHO SHOT HIS FATHER AND STRANGLED HIS MOTHER WITH A MECHANICAL ARM!!! Excuse the man for reacting with a bit of emotion, rage and passion when faced with this. Emotions are not logical.

BP did the exact same thing when he thought Bucky killed his father, he was ready to kill the man he thought killed him. If after it all Stark still wants to kill Bucky, criticize him. But Tony just watched a video where a man standing right next to him shot his father and strangled his mother and Tony is a bit impulsive and was wearing powered armor so he had an emotional reaction. A reaction to something he has struggled with his entire life, his last encounter with his living parents (the opening "holodeck" scene.)

Criticize him for a lot of things: Ultron, going along with these accords, putting a teenager in a battle with adults, but criticizing him for showing anger at the man who killed his parents? C'mon!

 

[gblews]

But the woman wouldn't have known that Tony was responsible for the creation of Ultron, and for that matter Ultron's creation was an accident born from Tony's good-intentions. He didn't know the AI he was creating would be evil and go with the stereotypical notion of "in order to protect the world, all humans must die" notion. So blaming him isn't entirely fair, how much do we blame SHIELD (Hydra infection aside) for using the Tesseract to create WMDs, sending a message to "all the realms" Earth is ready for a higher form of war?

Tony was responsible for Ultron regardless of his original intentions for the AI and regardless of who was to "blame".

As to how the woman surmised that Tony was responsible, which is an entirely separate issue, perhaps it became widely known that Iron Man was responsible for Ultron and since everyone knows that he and Tony are one and the same (one of the down sides to not having a secret identity), naturally, Tony became the target for the woman's grief and anger.

 

[JD]

But there's a difference between someone who killed some people under brainwashing a long time ago, and a formerly brainwashed assassin who has taken up terrorism just now. And between what the Winter Soldier did, which is what Stark is blaming Bucky for, and what T'Challa thought Bucky had just then done. Because by Vienna, Bucky is no longer under HYDRA control. It's the difference between being forced and making a choice.

Sure, but all I was talking about was the fact that Black Panther was just as pissed as Iron Man, and just as determined to kill Bucky when he thought he killed his father. My point was simply that they both had a purely emotional, equally violent reaction towards Bucky when they both thought he killed their parents.

 

[Trekker4747]

Tony was responsible for Ultron regardless of his original intentions for the AI and regardless of who was to "blame".

As to how the woman surmised that Tony was responsible, which is an entirely separate issue, perhaps it became widely known that Iron Man was responsible for Ultron and since everyone knows that he and Tony are one and the same (one of the down sides to not having a secret identity), naturally, Tony became the target for the woman's grief and anger.

I don't think it was known Tony was responsible for Ultron, I'd think if that were common knowledge Tony wouldn't be roaming around free. I think the woman just "blamed" Tony since he's an Avenger and probably seen as their "leader" or at least the one to look to for their actions since he's the most public figure out of all of them.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Maybe someone should tell Stark about the time his father almost dropped a mad-bomb on NYC while under the influence of a similar process.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Saw the movie. Love it. Maybe as good as The Winter Soldier. Definitely better than Age of Ultron. Team Cap!!!!!

Did not like the big white text for locations. I prefer the smaller, more detailed, technological-style location captions from The Winter Soldier.

The moments with Vision and Scarlet Witch were pleasant. Rather appropriate that Vision is still learning the social more of not just walking into peoples' rooms through the walls. I hope to see their relationship progress further at least somewhat like in the comics.

Why did Thunderbolt Ross show footage of the Battle of New York and the destruction of the Triskelion? The Avengers first assembled to success for the former, and they weren't involved in the latter event. Was Ross trying to guilt-trip the Avengers for the destruction in those incidents?

It was a bit confusing to have both Thaddeus Ross and Everett Ross in the same movie. And I would have thought if they brought in the U.S. Secretary of State, then they would bring in the German Minister of Justice or someone like that for a high-value prisoner in Berlin. And why were German commandos dispatched to apprehend Bucky in Bucharest? The crime happened on Austrian soil; do they rely on Germany to handle their work?

Black Widow really needs her own movie. Too bad all the slots before Infinity War Part 2 are taken. Damn sexism.

I gotta wonder if Stark is secretly keeping tabs on Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage. Maybe he approached them offscreen at some point, but they preferred to maintain their independence.

Did not see Giant Man coming. That was an awesome surprise! And Spider-Man mentioning the Battle of Hoth from The Empire Strikes Back was fantastic!

None of the Avengers died. I have to say I rather like that. The sheer social divide between former comrades held more weight to me than people dying in previous movies.

I wonder what Thor and Hulk will think when they see on the news what transpired. I hope it will be addressed somehow in Thor: Ragnarok.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Hulk no watch puny human news!

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

. I hope it will be addressed somehow in Thor: Ragnarok.

Well, there's a good chance news didn't make it to Asgard. Our television signals don't go quite that far.

Infinity War I'm sure will address all that needs to be.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Heimdall probably watches a lot of TV.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

HE WAS FACING THE MAN WHO SHOT HIS FATHER AND STRANGLED HIS MOTHER WITH A MECHANICAL ARM!!! Excuse the man for reacting with a bit of emotion, rage and passion when faced with this. Emotions are not logical.

T'Challa watched his father die, and thought Bucky was responsible, but after learning THE TRUTH, his rationality replaced pointless rage. On the other side, Stark knew Bucky had been brainwashed by Hydra, and was not at all responsible for his actions, yet he still tried to kill him and Cap. Truth did not matter to him--only his proven "I do what I want / I'm the ultimate judge" BS seen in nearly every appearance in the MCU.

The film was very clear about who had the moral high ground, as seen in the fight's finale, when Stark would not stop, gave his "final warning" to Cap (you know what that meant--willing to murder in order to murder again), and still spat his hatred after Cap spared his life. So, no matter what, Stark will try to force his will / revenge / plots on everyone else as if he is the absolute authority. Truth be damned.

Stark watched a video. T'Challa watched his father die in front of him, and tracked Bucky to the Hydra facility, but he reached a far different conclusion. Whether uncovering the Zemo framing of Bucky, or knowing Bucky had no ability to control his actions as a programmed assassin, the conclusion is that Barnes cannot be blamed. He certainly has a sense of guilt--that he could stop what was happening to him as a pawn. Stark knew this, but tried to kill until Stark himself was brought to the edge of death. That's what his hatred and revenge almost delivered.

 

[tomalak301]

I wonder what Thor and Hulk will think when they see on the news what transpired. I hope it will be addressed somehow in Thor: Ragnarok.

That was my first thought after leaving the theater. For one, I've been wanting a Hulk movie ever since the Avengers (And by Hulk Movie, I mean one starring Mark Ruffalo). I then heard that Hulk will be in the next Thor movie and that excited me.

I also agree, we do need a Black Widow movie. I was thinking Black Widow and Hulk, but it is a shame I'll have to keep waiting a while to see one. At least having Hulk in Ragnarok makes me actually look forward to that movie.

I need to see Norton's Incredible Hulk. Only Marvel film I have not seen.

 

[Trekker4747]

T'Challa watched his father die, and thought Bucky was responsible, but after learning THE TRUTH, his rationality replaced pointless rage. On the other side, Stark knew Bucky had been brainwashed by Hydra, and was not at all responsible for his actions, yet he still tried to kill him and Cap. Truth did not matter to him--only his proven "I do what I want / I'm the ultimate judge" BS seen in nearly every appearance in the MCU.

The film was very clear about who had the moral high ground, as seen in the fight's finale, when Stark would not stop, gave his "final warning" to Cap (you know what that meant--willing to murder in order to murder again), and still spat his hatred after Cap spared his life. So, no matter what, Stark will try to force his will / revenge / plots on everyone else as if he is the absolute authority. Truth be damned.

Stark watched a video. T'Challa watched his father die in front of him, and tracked Bucky to the Hydra facility, but he reached a far different conclusion. Whether uncovering the Zemo framing of Bucky, or knowing Bucky had no ability to control his actions as a programmed assassin, the conclusion is that Barnes cannot be blamed. He certainly has a sense of guilt--that he could stop what was happening to him as a pawn. Stark knew this, but tried to kill until Stark himself was brought to the edge of death. That's what his hatred and revenge almost delivered.

How can you not understand Tony reacted with rage and emotion towards a man who killed his parents (free will or not)? The guy killed his mother, logic went out the window, emotion ruled.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Well, there's a good chance news didn't make it to Asgard. Our television signals don't go quite that far.

Heimdall probably watches a lot of TV.

Yup. Plus, in all likelihood Thor: Ragnarok will feature Earth in some significant fashion. I suppose it's possible it will have as much Earth as Guardians of the Galaxy did, but I don't see that as a likely direction for a Thor movie.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Cap should wear an Anaheim Angels Cap, They used to be owned by Disney and It puts a big A on his forehead.

I wonder which MLB team Cap roots for now? Back in the day, I'm sure he was a Brooklyn Dodgers fan. But I'm told most New Yorkers have never forgiven them for moving to Los Angeles.

But again, the worst damage in the MCU has come from the government and it's a joke that Ross, the man who created the Abomination who rampaged through New York, is the one lecturing them about it.

In fairness, Ross only gave Blonsky a variant of the Project Rebirth serum to try to turn him into another Captain America. It wasn't until Blonsky went rogue and had that other crazy scientist treat him that he turned into the Abomination.

Also very interesting that it ends with Cap and 'his' Avengers on the run, potentially stretching the civil war storyline out a bit more. I wonder whether we'll see anything about the different teams of Avengers in Black Panther or Ant-man 2. And how this will set up Infinity war part i.

IIRC, Ant-Man & Wasp doesn't come out until some time in 2019, after both parts of Infinity War.

I've never understood this particular criticism. Parker is ~16 or 17 here (20s in other versions). I have a 16 year old son myself, and Tomei is 10 years older than me! So why is Aunt May supposed to look like a granny? (I don't read the comics, so if she's actually a great aunt in other versions, fine.) In some families, aunts and uncles are actually *younger* than their nieces and nephews!

Some aunts are younger but Aunt May traditionally isn't. And not only is Tomei too MILFy to be Aunt May, but it seems like they're not even trying to dowdy her up a bit.

But at least the movie itself kept pointing that out, with Tony Stark referring to "your surprising hot aunt."

Nick Fury (and SHIELD) used to be the guiding light for the Avengers, but without him they seem to have collectively become a loose cannon.

Speaking of, where was Nick Fury during all of this? The ending of Age of Ultron seemed to imply that he was coming out of hiding to start working with the Avengers again. (He even had his old eye-patch back.) What happened to him?

I love my plain baseball cap! $5.30 on Amazon with free shipping even for non-Prime members. It keeps my head warm and the sun out of my eyes without turning me into a walking billboard, and it's cheap enough that I don't really mind when I inevitably lose it somewhere. In fact, I always have a spare at home for just that purpose.

I'm guessing that you're a spy and that you're just saying that to try to convince us that you're not a spy. But I see right through you. I'm too smart for you to fool me!

So, you think that street fight would have gone better without Peter?

(I would have requisitioned 50 highly trained SHIELD snipers, to strike at Steve surgically from 1/4 of a mile away.)

Couldn't Iron Man & War Machine have done that on their own? But then, it seemed like part of what evened the odds in the movie was that, for most of it, none of them really wanted to hurt each other. Iron Man wanted Cap & Bucky taken alive. Were they really going for the kill, I think Iron Man, War Machine, & Vision could have taken out Cap's entire team on their own.

BTW, I found I was a bit confused as to why Ant-Man or Hawkeye even got involved in this. Both of them have children that they need to think of. Hawkeye worked for SHIELD, so I would think that he would be fine with government oversight. I thought Scott Lang was trying to make a pointed effort to stay on the right side of the law, regardless of how guilty he might have felt for beating up Falcon in Ant-Man. And while Hawkeye might feel he owes a debt to Wanda since her brother saved his life, I think becoming an international fugitive is taking it a bit far.

What happened to Black Widow in the end of it all? Was she allowed to stay on even though she let Cap escape?

I was wondering that. Maybe she went into hiding again. She'd have the most experience going underground like that.

Were people surprised when they "revealed" that Bucky killed the Starks? My theater gasped with shock at that. But they already revealed it in Winter Soldier, and they showed the car crash scene ?twice? before the revelation. I don't get it.

I was surprised but I figured it out a few seconds before they actually revealed it.

Cap 3 became Civil War because WB was making BvS.
http://screenrant.com/captain-america-civil-war-batman-v-superman-inspired/

Recall that RDJ said he was in talks to do a 4th Iron Man film on Ellen DeGeneres' show back in 2014. Then a few weeks later, it was announced that RDJ would costar in Captain America 3.

I'm of the opinion that RDJ was lying when he announced Iron Man 4. He just said that to drum up publicity for The Judge.

The Emancipation Proclamation was essentially an executive order which Lincoln issued as commander in chief of the US military and pertained to territories controlled by the Union Army during the Civil War.

Historical Correction: The Emancipation Proclamation pertained to territories controlled by the Confederate Army during the Civil War. Slave states under Union control such as Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, & Tennessee were exempt.

Why did Thunderbolt Ross show footage of the Battle of New York and the destruction of the Triskelion? The Avengers first assembled to success for the former, and they weren't involved in the latter event. Was Ross trying to guilt-trip the Avengers for the destruction in those incidents?

The New York footage seemed to mostly highlight the collateral damage caused by the Hulk. And while "the Avengers" weren't involved in the destruction of the Triskelion, 3 of it's current members were-- Captain America, Black Widow, & Falcon.

Honestly, I think that these movies have an odd habit of coming up with unrelated solutions to misinterpreted problems. In Age of Ultron, Tony Stark insists on developing artificial intelligence to fight off any future alien invasions, trying to create a software solution to what seems to be more of a hardware problem. In Civil War, the governments of the world blame the Avengers for collateral damage during incidents that they didn't cause. (Tony Stark bears a certain degree of responsibility for creating Ultron in the first place but that doesn't apply to the Avengers as a whole.)

Still, I'm on Team Iron Man. I think a degree of oversight would be good for them. That airport fight didn't need to happen at all had Captain America & the Winter Soldier been willing to submit to the authorities. And while the Winter Soldier was brainwashed and perhaps not morally culpable for the crimes he committed, I think it's still clear that he's too dangerous to be left roaming free. Even Bucky himself acknowledges that.

And I would like to mention that I loved how they handled the stuff with Rhodey at the end. I liked how he still stands by his convictions even though it cost him dearly, and how he's pissed off at how it turned out but, as a soldier, always knew that this was a possibility.

So, actually, maybe I'm really Team War Machine.

Did not see Giant Man coming. That was an awesome surprise!

I saw that coming. Mostly because Funko release a Pop! vinyl figurine of "Giant-Man" as part of its Captain America: Civil War set. http://www.hottopic.com/product/fun...p-giant-man-6-vinyl-bobble-head/10519025.html

Heimdall probably watches a lot of TV.

I hear he's a big fan of Luther!

 

[Chekov's Phaser]

So, when they made Winter Soldier and revealed Bucky killing the Starks

For some reason this initially confused me. I thought "Bucky is a Lannister?"

 

[Guy Gardener]

Heimdall doesn't have to watch any TV, because he watches all TV being made.